Burke Bb, or F? Need infos.

[Sirchronique]

Okay, I decided to edit this post, because I figure you all don't want to read a book on my contemplating of this decision :p .

Time to order another burke, it didn't take long to decide this!

So,

I'll put the questions more simply:

- What is the bore size of the Burke Bb? Is it similar to the Burke A? Is it more close to a Susato Bb whistle, or a generation Bb whistle? (comparison would help me out more than measurements)


-Burke F- What is the air intake? On a scale of 1-5, where a burke A whistle has an air intake of 1, and a burke low D has an air intake of 5, what would the burke F be? I was thinking probably something like a 3. Am I correct?


I can't decide which whistle I want, and almost left it up to a coin flip. I plan to order very soon. In addition to answering these 2 questions, you can feel free to tell me which one you think is a better whistle, or some info about either one. Anything that might sway my decision. Right now I'm torn between the two, and I think I'd be happy with either, but, I can only choose one!


Oh, and if you can't give a comparison of those factors to the whistles I asked for a comparison to, that's okay. Any type of description of those qualities that would give me an idea of bore size on the Bb, and air requirements on the F would be useful.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Only thing i can "contribute" is that my F is probably the least 'useful' whistle when playing with others. It is a lovely whistle (Löfgren) but as i said of very limited use when playing with others.

[tin tin]

I think B/Bb/A are the 'Goldilocks' pitches: not too high, not too low. The high notes aren't shrill, but it still sounds like a regular whistle. From G on down, the character of the instrument changes (and so does the playing technique). The magnificent albums Kitty Lie Over and Deadly Buzz are strong arguments for Bb whistles (and Mick and Caoimhin happen to use Burkes).

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I think B/Bb/A are the 'Goldilocks' pitches: not too high, not too low. The high notes aren't shrill, but it still sounds like a regular whistle. From G on down, the character of the instrument changes (and so does the playing technique). The magnificent albums Kitty Lie Over and Deadly Buzz are strong arguments for Bb whistles (and Mick and Caoimhin happen to use Burkes).

Are you sure about that? I saw a picture not long ago where they both played Generation(looking) whistles. It was certainly not "whistle that choked on a grape" Burkes anyway:)
I am so with you regarding B/Bb/A by the way!

[tin tin]

Not sure what they use live, but the liner notes on both albums mention Burkes.

[Feadoggie]

- What is the bore size of the Burke Bb? Is it similar to the Burke A? Is it more close to a Susato Bb whistle, or a generation Bb whistle? (comparison would help me out more than measurements)

- Susato has made Bb whistles in two different bores. I've owned and played both. The S-Series bore was close to 1/2" and not a really good whistle IMO. The M-Series was a better whistle with an appropriately larger bore. I do not have one here to measure however.

- The bore on the Generation Bb is about 19/32". These measurements are coming from a set of inexpensive plastic calipers. My digital calipers are home in the shop with a batch of whistles. So these numbers are for your comparison only.

- Keep in mind the Michael Burke uses tubes to maintain an optimum bore to length ratio for each whistle key unlike makers such as Susato, etc.. That is one of several reasons why his whistles have similar playing characteristics and dynamics across the different keys. The Burke Bb also has a bore of ~19/32". The Burke A has a bore closer to 5/8" or a tiny tad larger. The Burke low F is more like 13/16"

- The Burke is more open than a Gen Bb. I like the Gen Bb whistles and they represent very good bang for the buck. I own a few in both brass and nickel plate. I own two Burke Bb whistles - one aluminum and one in brass. The Burkes are louder and smoother than the Gens.

- The Burke is not as open as the M-Series Susato Bb but it is more open than the Susato S-Series Bb. The M-Series Susato has good volume and is a decent player. Mine did have the characteristic fat beak and large BH2 hole which was not a plus IMO. The S-Series Susato Bb just plain had too narrow a bore to be usefull. It had to be played very delicately and was rather quiet. I owned three of those and still have one. I won't sell that one because I wouldn't wish it on any other player. The Burke is just a better playing whistle all around than either Susato design.

-Burke F- What is the air intake? On a scale of 1-5, where a burke A whistle has an air intake of 1, and a burke low D has an air intake of 5, what would the burke F be? I was thinking probably something like a 3. Am I correct?

I won't answer that question. I do not have a set of calipers that will measure the breath requirements of whistles and don't feel that it would be a useful measure if I did have one anyway. Burkes use more air than some whistles and less than others. So let's compare it to the Susato Kildare low F since you mentioned Susatos. I've owned both. The Susato is a decent player and has a nice tone. The Burke uses a bit less air than the Susato. The Susato had the large BH2 hole and really big beak. The Burke is smoother playing, responds faster and covering the holes is less of a bother IMO. The Burke is not an air hog IMO but I do like free-er blowing whistles (because you play the whistle, the whistle doesn't play you).

Shannon and Matt Heaton were in town last weekend. Shannon plays Burke whistles and one was a low F. It sounded fabulous and she really put it through its paces on a couple tunes. I thought that was a good endorsement for the Burke low F personally. Of course she plays Burkes in a variety of keys. You can check them out on YouTube.

If you like the Burke A, you'll like the Burke F and the Burke Bb. The Burke Bb will play more like a narrow bore Burke A (imagine that!). The Burke F will still play easily and use just a little more air but shouldn't leave you gasping if you are happy with the Burke A.

If you are having trouble deciding whether to buy a low F or a Bb I would suggest that you plan to buy both. The low F will play in F and Bb keys. The Bb will play in Bb and Eb. So what keys do you play in most frequently? I use both whistles quite a lot. Your mileage may vary. It depends on what you play and who you are playing with.

Feadoggie

[Peter Duggan]

The Burke Low A also has a bore of ~19/32". The Burke Bb has a bore closer to 5/8" or a tiny tad larger.

The Burke Bb will play more like a narrow bore Burke A (imagine that!).

Just wondering if you've got the bore measurements above the wrong way round?

Susato has made Bb whistles in two different bores. I've owned and played both. The S-Series bore was close to 1/2" and not a really good whistle IMO.

And also how the Susato Oriole Bb (which I assume to be an 'S' bore and think you got in the set of four) compares to that?

[Feadoggie]

The Burke Low A also has a bore of ~19/32". The Burke Bb has a bore closer to 5/8" or a tiny tad larger.

The Burke Bb will play more like a narrow bore Burke A (imagine that!).

Just wondering if you've got the bore measurements above the wrong way round?

Susato has made Bb whistles in two different bores. I've owned and played both. The S-Series bore was close to 1/2" and not a really good whistle IMO.

And also how the Susato Oriole Bb (which I assume to be an 'S' bore and think you got in the set of four) compares to that?

Yes, you are right. I was not quite done proofing things before you responded, Peter. I switched the two whistles but should have fixed things at this point. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Peter, I do not have any experience yet with the Susato Oriole in Bb. I just can't "buy 'em all" any more. I will say that of the three S-Series Susato Kildare Bb's that I've owned, only the oldest (early 90's maybe) one was a real stinker. The other two were quiet but fairly playable whistles. So the Kelishecks did learn something and correct it over time. I expect the Oriole is similar to those more recent Kildares but that's really just a guess on my part. I do like the Oriole in D. I would still favor a Gen or the Burke over any of the Susato S-Series Bb whistles though unless the really crisp Susato sound is what you need at a particular time.

Feadoggie

[Sirchronique]

Thanks, this helps a lot~!

The reason I ask about the air requirement on the burke low F, is because I own a burke low D, and I was hoping that the burke low F would have less air requirements than the low D.

I must say, I'm a bit surprised you say that the burke F uses less air than the susato F. The susato low D uses a significant amount less air than the burke low D viper. I love the burke low D viper, but it does not get very many notes per lungful of air. The susato gets many more notes per lung-full.

To be clear, when I say "air requirements" I am speaking of notes per lungfull of air, not the pressure needed to blow. I ask because I am still improving proper placement of breath on a low D. I want a low F where I do not need to be thinking about finding a strategic spot to place a breath super frequently like on the burke low D.

And yes, both keys are unusual, but I have a burke in the useful keys for playing with others (Low D, A, and High D). This will primarily be a whistle to play alone, as I really like the fact that a low F is the higher end of the low spectrum, and Bb is the lower end of the high spectrum. Both keys are in the "Sweet spot" that I think sounds just great, as far as whistle keys are concerned. I think I am leaning towards the Bb. But, rather than order today, I'm going to contemplate this a bit more before making the choice. Thanks for the info!

- What is the bore size of the Burke Bb? Is it similar to the Burke A? Is it more close to a Susato Bb whistle, or a generation Bb whistle? (comparison would help me out more than measurements)

- Susato has made Bb whistles in two different bores. I've owned and played both. The S-Series bore was close to 1/2" and not a really good whistle IMO. The M-Series was a better whistle with an appropriately larger bore. I do not have one here to measure however.

- The bore on the Generation Bb is about 19/32". These measurements are coming from a set of inexpensive plastic calipers. My digital calipers are home in the shop with a batch of whistles. So these numbers are for your comparison only.

- Keep in mind the Michael Burke uses tubes to maintain an optimum bore to length ratio for each whistle key unlike makers such as Susato, etc.. That is one of several reasons why his whistles have similar playing characteristics and dynamics across the different keys. The Burke Bb also has a bore of ~19/32". The Burke A has a bore closer to 5/8" or a tiny tad larger. The Burke low F is more like 13/16"

- The Burke is more open than a Gen Bb. I like the Gen Bb whistles and they represent very good bang for the buck. I own a few in both brass and nickel plate. I own two Burke Bb whistles - one aluminum and one in brass. The Burkes are louder and smoother than the Gens.

- The Burke is not as open as the M-Series Susato Bb but it is more open than the Susato S-Series Bb. The M-Series Susato has good volume and is a decent player. Mine did have the characteristic fat beak and large BH2 hole which was not a plus IMO. The S-Series Susato Bb just plain had too narrow a bore to be usefull. It had to be played very delicately and was rather quiet. I owned three of those and still have one. I won't sell that one because I wouldn't wish it on any other player. The Burke is just a better playing whistle all around than either Susato design.

-Burke F- What is the air intake? On a scale of 1-5, where a burke A whistle has an air intake of 1, and a burke low D has an air intake of 5, what would the burke F be? I was thinking probably something like a 3. Am I correct?

I won't answer that question. I do not have a set of calipers that will measure the breath requirements of whistles and don't feel that it would be a useful measure if I did have one anyway. Burkes use more air than some whistles and less than others. So let's compare it to the Susato Kildare low F since you mentioned Susatos. I've owned both. The Susato is a decent player and has a nice tone. The Burke uses a bit less air than the Susato. The Susato had the large BH2 hole and really big beak. The Burke is smoother playing, responds faster and covering the holes is less of a bother IMO. The Burke is not an air hog IMO but I do like free-er blowing whistles (because you play the whistle, the whistle doesn't play you).

Shannon and Matt Heaton were in town last weekend. Shannon plays Burke whistles and one was a low F. It sounded fabulous and she really put it through its paces on a couple tunes. I thought that was a good endorsement for the Burke low F personally. Of course she plays Burkes in a variety of keys. You can check them out on YouTube.

If you like the Burke A, you'll like the Burke F and the Burke Bb. The Burke Bb will play more like a narrow bore Burke A (imagine that!). The Burke F will still play easily and use just a little more air but shouldn't leave you gasping if you are happy with the Burke A.

If you are having trouble deciding whether to buy a low F or a Bb I would suggest that you plan to buy both. The low F will play in F and Bb keys. The Bb will play in Bb and Eb. So what keys do you play in most frequently? I use both whistles quite a lot. Your mileage may vary. It depends on what you play and who you are playing with.

Feadoggie

Your comment about the burke Bb being like a narrow bore A has answered my question very well! I was hoping it would be thinner by such a degree. Many thanks!

[Peter Duggan]

I was not quite done proofing things before you responded, Peter.

Sorry!

I do not have any experience yet with the Susato Oriole in Bb.

Ah, right... remembered you buying and reviewing something Oriole (which must have been the D), but afraid I didn't check. So just thinking of getting the set out of curiosity (don't need any of the keys) and not that bothered if the Bb's the least satisfactory when I doubt I'd buy it on its own!

[Feadoggie]

The reason I ask about the air requirement on the burke low F, is because I own a burke low D, and I was hoping that the burke low F would have less air requirements than the low D.

I must say, I'm a bit surprised you say that the burke F uses less air than the susato F. The susato low D uses a significant amount less air than the burke low D viper. I love the burke low D viper, but it does not get very many notes per lungful of air. The susato gets many more notes per lung-full.

To be clear, when I say "air requirements" I am speaking of notes per lungfull of air, not the pressure needed to blow. I ask because I am still improving proper placement of breath on a low D. I want a low F where I do not need to be thinking about finding a strategic spot to place a breath super frequently like on the burke low D.

I guess that's one reason why I am reluctant to state an air usage figure for the Burke. This is all so subjective. I wouldn't state a "notes per breath" number or even a comparison based on a scale either. It depends a lot on experience playing in general, I think, familiarity with the music, etc.. The Susato low F is by no means difficult on air (IMHO). Opinions of others might differ from mine. Novices may use more air than experienced players. I had been playing high whistles and various types of flutes for many years before I came to play any low whistles. I liked the Susato low F when I was using it as my primary low F. But I do find the Burke an easier and smoother whistle to play overall.

As you would expect, the Burke low F does use less air than the Burke low D Viper or EZ models. I have several of Mike's low D's as well as a low C (heck, I've got most all of the keys he makes.). I have no air issues with any of them. I just pick 'em up and play, not thinking about what key whistle I am playing. I could not do that with Susatos or Chieftains. I always had to consider how each key played and what it expected as input when I picked it up. I have no issues in the breath department with most any whistle though. I like free(er)-blowing whistles - Burkes, Copelands, O'Riordans, etc. If Clarke made a low D scaled up from their high D design I might have a problem with that.

I actually have an issue with whistles which are so "air efficient" (usually the ones with tight windways) that you run out of useful oxygen in the lungs before you have played out all the gas from your lungs forcing you to exhale before you can again inhale. That's not good for an old fool like me.

Bb and F are not uncommon keys. Everyone plays different repertoire so what key is most common to one person can vary from another. I played church music for many years, still do on occasion, and a lot of pieces I ran into in that realm were presented in Bb and Eb. The F whistle comes in handy for the Bb stuff as well. In contemporary Irish music the low F is being used a lot - Lunasa being a frequent exponent of music for that whistle. There are others doing the same. F#- not so much.

Bottom line, if you are comfortable with the Burke low A, the Bb will feel very much similar. The low F will be a new experience, somewhere in between the low A and the low D. That's just as you expected. If you are unsure of making that jump, get the Bb. Then get a low G. Then get the low F......then low E, low Eb and then the low C.

And learning where to breath in a tune is part of learning the music. You should be doing that with a whistle in any key. There are "natural" places to take a breath in every tune. It's just part of playing the instrument. No Burke whistle will restrict you from playing the music as it is meant to be played. And I don't know of many other well known whistles that would either.

Ah, right... remembered you buying and reviewing something Oriole (which must have been the D), but afraid I didn't check. So just thinking of getting the set out of curiosity (don't need any of the keys) and not that bothered if the Bb's the least satisfactory when I doubt I'd buy it on its own!

Yes, I'd like to have the set too - just to see how they compare. When I got the Oriole D it was quite new and the dealer did not have the Bb tube yet. The stars will align one day and I'll get the set. Too many whistles, not enough cash!

Feadoggie

[RonKiley]

According to my calipers the Generation bore is 14 mm and the burke is 15 mm. My battery is dead so I can't more accurate than that. I like them both. I have no problem with the air required and I am breathing impaired to some extent. I cannot play any low D that I have tried decently.

Ron

[cunparis]

I own both the Burke Bb and the Low F, those two are my only burkes. I played the Low F last night and the Bb a few days ago. The F does use more air but I think it's not really possible to determine exactly how much more air. if I have time I will play a tune on each and see if I can come up with a useful comparison. I've actually been curious about this for the MK Low D & Burke Low F.

I didn't get the Burke Low D specifically because I've read about it requiring a lot of air, that's why I went with the Low F. the Low F is a fine whistle. The grip is a bit easier than the Low D and I really like how the Burke texture is not slippery (even though it may look like it would be, it's not slippery at all). So it's easy to hold and play. Since you have a A already, I'd vote for the F.

It's interesting that someone said the Bb was like a narrow bore A. I never thought of that. I was debating between A & Bb and ended up with the Bb mainly because I found one used. I really like the Bb, it just sound so smooth and great. I love burkes in general.

[joey_schu]

My Burke Bb (brass) is one of my favorite whistles. A very well designed instrument. Use it quite often when playing with a singer - actually almost every time we play out.