Material and its influence on tone

[Gabriel]

Hi fluters,

I'm not intending to open a can of worms here, but reading of the following paper is warmly recommended to everyone interested in flutes:

http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/?page_id=97&sprache=2

I know it's about Böhm flutes, but what's really interesting is not the fact that one player sounds pretty much the same on every flute, but that seven players sound totally different on one single flute.

The german version is a bit more comprehensive, so readers interested in deeper info might want to googletranslate the german version.

Of course everyone is free to continue believing that cocuswood produces the best sound and delrin is crap. We're living in a free world after all.

Cheers,
G.

[crookedtune]

Not really a can o'worms. We must love discussing this, or it wouldn't come up so much.

I've played many flutes, and agree that the difference in my own sound on each is minimal. What IS important to me is how I feel playing different flutes. I prefer the feel of wood to delrin, and I prefer certain weights, thicknesses, embouchure shapes, etc.... Ultimately, I'll sound pretty much the same on any of them, but I enjoy playing some flutes more than others. To me, that matters even more than the tone itself.

From my perspective, the rest of it is just we obsessed hobbyists looking for things to talk about. (Which is perfectly OK, too).

[Loren]

The fact is, both the player and the material make a difference, more so when it comes to thick walled simple system flutes.

Not everyone can hear those differences, due to:

A.) Lack of training - Just as some people haven't learned how to hear (identify) pitches and intervals perfectly, but this can be learned.

B) Natural physiological ability - Just as some people are born with vision better than 20/20, some people are born with better than average hearing.

If you can't hear the differences between a Cocus flute and a Boxwood flute, that's your problem, it doesn't mean that aren't differences that others can hear. People see the color spectrum differently. If both your eyes see color equally, you can't possibly know what it's like to see color more vividly, or more accurately, you can't know or even accurately imagine what you're missing. I happen to have a subtle but noticeable difference in how I see color from one eye to my other eye. Only by having the somewhat unique experience of being able to view a painting for example with first my "less good eye" then my "better eye", can I appreciate what my slightly color blind eye is missing. Color is very much like sound, if all you can see with regards to color variation is all you can see, how can you claim that others can't see even more subtle differences in color?

This debate will never end, but those of us who can hear differences know the truth of the matter. Of course as the years pass and we suffer more hearing damage, even those of us who can hear differences gradually can hear less and less than we did when we were younger.

[crookedtune]

Maybe some truth there, Loren. Sad to say, I have vintage ears. But I'd venture very few of us players (let alone our casual listeners) could discern a whole lot of difference between the flute woods.

Methinks there's a lot of Emperor's New Clothes at work here.

[paddler]

I had an interesting experience related to this issue just the other day. A flute maker offered me a choice between three of his Xiao flutes. They were identical in every respect other than the wood they were made from. One was a softer wood than the other two, which were made from the same wood. When I played them I felt there was a big difference between the softwood one and the harder wood ones, but I could not distinguish between the harder wood ones. It was a very obvious difference to me, even when selecting them at random with my eyes closed. A big enough difference that I could not help but notice it. However, when I asked him what they sounded like to him when I was playing, he was adamant that all three sounded the same. Even with his eyes closed he could not distinguish among them.

This experience made me realize that we as players probably hear ourselves quite differently than our audience hears us. In this respect, even if the audience can't tell the difference between materials, if the player can, then it matters (to the player). This surprised me.

The other aspect of the experience that surprised me is that on balance, I preferred the softer wood. The sound was not as pure, but it was more resonant. I could feel as well as hear the difference.

[an seanduine]

I sat alone in the room, with two of my flutes in my lap, one delrin the other cocus. I closed my eyes and played each in turn.
When I opened my eyes I could not see my neighbors' cat, the one that belongs to that nice German couple named Schrodinger. . . but I swore I could have heard a Mgniao. . .

Bob

[Akiba]

Thanks for the article, Gabriel.

I've little doubt that playing the same model Boehm flute made of different metals has little effect or appreciable difference. But I'm not sure that can be directly applied to simple system wood/wood-substitute flutes. I guess we'd need to have that tested as assiduously as the one with the Boehm flute, i.e. have a specific maker make flutes exactly the same out of different materials and have a number of players tested on each flute.

What's interesting in my own experience recently is that I have aquired a circa 1920's Boehm flute with a blackwood body and a metal (probably nickel) headjoint with a plastic (ebonite?) lip plate. I experimented by having my new Armstrong silver headjoing with gold-plated lip plate fitted to the wood body. Wow, what a huge difference that makes. So, Gabe, you're probably very much on the right side of the argument stating that the dimensions and physical makeup of the flute are more important in regards to sound production than the material used. Does that mean there are no subtle, discernible differences with different woods/wood-substitutes--don't know. Science can't measure everything.

[Loren]

Maybe some truth there, Loren. Sad to say, I have vintage ears. But I'd venture very few of us players (let alone our casual listeners) could discern a whole lot of difference between the flute woods.

Methinks there's a lot of Emperor's New Clothes at work here.

Well, you know, I've had the disadvantage of both having been born with unusual hearing - I am actually hypersensitive to certain frequencies, types of sound, and high volume - plus I spent several years working 50hrs a week in a woodwind shop hearing instruments made from different woods being tuned and voiced virtually all day every day. Could be that my experience has been......unusual.

[Akiba]

Mr. Baubet playing his own flutes made of different material (I think he has only one model):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbQltTiw ... ure=relmfu
olivewood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6NjDq0N ... ure=relmfu
delrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEsfivZX ... ure=relmfu
kingwood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNcKZF ... ure=relmfu
cocobolo

Seems to be in the same location in his kitchen. Of course, this is not a scientific test, but I think it does have some substance for comparison.

I wonder if hand-made Irish flutes will differ in tone not so much from material used but the fact no two are EXACTLY alike (as compared to Boehm flutes which have much higher tolerances). That said, flutes (and instruments in general) vary even if they are from the same maker made from the same material.

For what it's worth, I really like the Delrin clip and sound. I'd be very happy with that sound.

[apossibleworld]

Going to try to keep this concise and not rant too much. Any scientific study that purports to say that material makes no difference is simply wrong. Most flute players can feel and hear the differences, in Boehm flutes as well as wooden flutes. I have recently played amazing vintage Boehm flutes in gold and platinum, and anyone who can't hear the difference needs a new set of ears. Or on the other hand, lucky for them that they need not care about such things.

These so-called scientists are looking at the wrong set of variables, if they believe there's no difference. It's so elementary... I feel like we're watching Newtonian physicists in a post-Einstein world. It's like a color-blind person insisting that color is just a figment of the imaginations of painters, and buying special paints is a big waste of time and money.

[an seanduine]

... I feel like we're watching Newtonian physicists in a post-Einstein world.

Ya know, it's funny you should mention that.
I could swear I heard the Schrodinger's cat, but I couldn't see it. . .thought I heard it, but couldn't see it. . . Someone once told me they thought that cat could walk through walls, but I've never seen that either. . .guess I just didn't observe hard enough. Then again, the Schrodinger's cat may not choose to walk through walls when I'm watching it. . . Guess that's a cat for ya! Then again it may be my observational powers. . .I don't think I have any special perceptual powers, but then again they tell me I might be able to change that cat's behavior by observing it.

Bob

[Steampacket]

Had a word with Kevin Crawford a week or so ago. He was playing an acoustic gig in nearby Copenhagen. He was playing a blackwood Grinter, but using his cocuswood Grinter head joint. He percieved the sound to be different to the sound he heard when playing the blackwood Grinter head joint. He thought it was odd as both head joints were lined. The acoustic gig was great by the way, flute & bodhran, box and violin. The fiddle was hard to hear thought as flute and box dominated.

[Viking of Kiev]

Mr. Baubet playing his own flutes made of different material (I think he has only one model):.....

He has two models, according to his former site that is out of function - Rudall-ish and Pratten-ish.
I have a mopane 4-keys rudall from him and I can't say it sounds to me like the flutes on these vids - that adds more complexity to the question - not only player hears himself differently (from inside) on different flutes and listener hears from outside but also various records (recording conditions) distort sound in many ways.

[Gabriel]

I wonder if hand-made Irish flutes will differ in tone not so much from material used but the fact no two are EXACTLY alike (as compared to Boehm flutes which have much higher tolerances). That said, flutes (and instruments in general) vary even if they are from the same maker made from the same material.

Important point. I dare to argue that I managed to make a few identical sounding flutes from different materials, and also some differently sounding flutes from the same materials (mostly to customer's demand). It's no big deal actually. When making a flute I try to get its tone and performance right to my ears and fingers, and I really don't care what it is made of. For me there aren't different shapes of "right". If everything fits, it's fine, and it really doesn't matter if the stick I just finished is made of blackwood oder mopane or delrin (save the fact that I never would make a flute from delrin). Other makers might try to carve out specific characteristics they see in a certain timber, and if that works out for them, it's just fine. However I would never recommend to get a flute of a certain material if a customer asks for a mellow, piercing, loud, quiet or whatever flute. But that's just me.

I've played many flutes, and agree that the difference in my own sound on each is minimal. What IS important to me is how I feel playing different flutes. I prefer the feel of wood to delrin, and I prefer certain weights, thicknesses, embouchure shapes, etc.... Ultimately, I'll sound pretty much the same on any of them, but I enjoy playing some flutes more than others. To me, that matters even more than the tone itself.

Even more important. I don't care at all about flute material, really. I recently tried one of Patrick Olwell's personal flutes which he sold to a fluter now residing in Munich. It was a hell of a flute, one of the best I ever tried, played like a dream. It was made from cocuswood. Can I say that it was the cocuswood? I could, but I won't, as it just doesn't sound sensible to me. It is the craftmanship of a brilliant flute maker, and not the material. At least for me. Others might think differently. However I still sounded like me, not like cocuswood.

I absolutely agree that a soft wood like maple will make a flute sounding very differently to one made form blackwood. I even might be convinced that boxwood makes a flute sounding a bit different to one made from blackwood or cocus, however that yet has to happen - the boxwood flutes I tried didn't sound mellower or "creamier" than their blackwooden counterparts, they usually just had more curves.

Of course we cannot eliminate the possibility of a certain influence of almost-identical materials on tone, and I'm not trying to make a point here. However I must say that I find the attitude of some people a bit arrogant - how, if not by using scientific methods, could we even *try* to find an answer to the question that bothers the entire fluting world? If it isn't science, it must be believing, and that is as individual as taste is.

The more I think about all this, the more I'm convinced that the question if homeopathy works is basically the same one we're discussing here...

[LorenzoFlute]

The more I think about all this, the more I'm convinced that the question if homeopathy works is basically the same one we're discussing here...

There are recent descoveries that say that water can track and memorize the vibration of what is immersed in it, which still proves nothing about homeopathy but it makes its theory more believable to the scientific world.

This just to say that analizing frequencies and interrogating the ear might not necessarily tell us everything about sound, other aspects might hide themself from being scientfically analized...

I've tried some flutes from a maker once, they were all nice but the blackwood ones sounded definitely better than the mopane ones. Similar experience with blackwood and boxwood from another maker. Sure it could be coincidence, but at the moment it's enough for me to choose a wood rather than the other.