Cutting Through

[I.D.10-t]

Well if we are looking at opinions...

Let's say there is a difference.
All things being equal, the fact that it's up to debate seems to point to their not being much difference.
Things like individual craftsmanship and body style have more of an effect on the over all harmonics and volume than other factors like materials. Even then the flute difference will be subjective, and what I hear will be different than that of an older person, and a kid will be able to hear something different, so even an objective measure like decibels may not hold up subjectively. With such variability, I'd say listen to what the maker says. They have the chance to compare apples to apples, and if they say they cannot make an unlined flute that plays the same as its counterpart, then it seems best to defer opinion to them. Even then their views are probably filled with expectation bias and other perception filters.

The clear options to me (for cutting through) seem to be, change embouchure, kick the tune up an octave, get a Böhm, get a piccolo, find a session with fewer instruments, or get an amp. From the few flutes I've blown across the color of the wood, the metal in the rings, and other material choices have been way overshadowed by the player and design parameters to the point that the other factors would drop out even when played solo.

To Quote Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus P. Thompson

An ox might worry about a fea of ordinary size--a small creature of the first order of smallness. But he would probably not trouble himself about a fea's fea; being of the second order of smallness, it would be negligible. Even a gross of feas' feas would not be of much account to the ox.

[Feadoggie]

I am, in fact, playing a Murray with a loud, woody sound, but (it seems to me subjectively, at any rate), that it doesn't cut through ensemble sound as well as when I replace the headjoint with a fully lined one.

Have you tried having another (decent to good) flute player play your flute while you listen?

Right! Have you tried that, Jim?

There's nothing in my experience that says an unlined Murray does not project well.

And how are you assessing the projection when you are the player? And keep in mind that as we get older, some frequencies and harmonics can become hared to distinguish from other sounds. (Not that I, as a young man, didn't spend too much time in front of a stack of Fender Twins.)

What's "edge" anyway? Is it higher freequency harmonic content? Is it hiss?

I have two of those from other flutes that fit the Murray body and it seems to cut through better with them, there seems to be an added edge to the sound. I think the hardness of the metal may in some way provide the acoustical edge.

As I pointed out earlier, that's no evidence of the effect of lined vs un-lined heads. They are different heads altogether with different embouchure holes. And you might blow them differently too.

As for the hardness, I'd ask the same question, "How do you feel about delrin?". What's hard got to do with it and how hard is hard?

Would you think the same about polish and smoothness of the bore?

I'm still reminded that many good players sound quite similar going from flute to flute no matter the maker or the configuration of the head joint.

Feadoggie

[jim stone]

Leapfrogging. Sorry. Didn't see the last post:

I'm afraid that significant differences, even big ones, have been debated, here and elsewhere. (For instance, there was
a long and serious debate on this board several years ago, as to whether differences in bore size, embouchure cut,
hole size, and so on, in well made flutes, made any difference whatsoever to the flute's sound in the hands of a
skilled player.) That the significance of a difference gets debated doesn't show the difference is insignificant.

I agree with you that embouchure cut, bore size, tone hole size (and, I think you will agree) the player, make more difference
to a flute's projection than whether the headjoint is fully or partly lined. But it doesn't follow that, because these
other features make more difference, whether the headjoint is fully or partly lined doesn't make a significant difference,
e.g. one it might be prudent to take into account in buying a flute. That a feature is less significant than a number of
other features doesn't mean it's insignificant, even if it's at the bottom of the totem pole.

I think I feel as Akiba did--the tentative sense that the lining makes a difference that can actually be helpful in some
venues, buoyed considerably by the fact that it is shared by a number of people better than myself
but somewhat undercut by my concern that we seem to be relying on subjective impressions.

It is widely said that the headjoint makes a major (if not the major) contribution to a flute's sound. I suggest
that the harder surface of a fully lined head adds an acoustic edge that can make a significant contribution
to projection. I don't know this, however; still it seems not implausible and it explains the impressions
of a number of people, for what those impressions are worth. The view that a difference is being made (though
not necessarily my explanation of it) has surfaced a number of times over the last six or seven years.

[Nanohedron]

Jim, you still haven't defined what you mean by "cutting through". Do you mean loudness? Or is it projection? Or do you mean close-proximity audibility?

This last, BTW, can have little if anything necessarily to do with volume, but can very much be entirely about tonal color. I had been playing a so-called Pratten configuration for a time, but when I switched to a so-called Rudall, all of a sudden my céilí bandmate (boxplayer, so I had my work cut out for me ) complained that he couldn't hear me any more. Yet, on checking, we discovered that I was getting close enough to the same volume out of either flute, so volume had to be written off as a non-issue. Also, both had lined heads. Next then we compared tone via the ear test: the Pratten had obviously broader harmonics while the Rudall's harmonics were compressed, more focused. Both reedy in different ways. We concluded that the more laser-like quality of the Rudall must be the reason he was less able to hear it sitting next to me, because broader harmonics seemed to have more "sideways" projection, to be completely subjective and unscientific about it. Yet, folks out on the dance floor heard both flutes just fine.

[Peter Duggan]

I'm still reminded that many good players sound quite similar going from flute to flute no matter the maker or the configuration of the head joint.

Or maybe even many/most/all players (good or not)?

[LorenzoFlute]

I just wanted to add that I never implied that Murray flutes don't project well. I actually think they do better then most other flutes (if you can play them). Though, I never tried a lined Murray, and don't know if it would be different. If I had to choose between lined and unlined I'd go with the former, but it's a matter of instinct, nothing scientifical.

[jim stone]

Jim, you still haven't defined what you mean by "cutting through". Do you mean loudness? Or is it projection? Or do you mean close-proximity audibility?

I mean projection, not loudness. I am aware of equally loud flutes such that one projects better
than the other.

[jim stone]

I just wanted to add that I never implied that Murray flutes don't project well. I actually think they do better then most other flutes (if you can play them). Though, I never tried a lined Murray, and don't know if it would be different. If I had to choose between lined and unlined I'd go with the former, but it's a matter of instinct, nothing scientifical.

Right. Me neither. I would prefer a lined Murray, too. I do think there is a learning curve to playing a Murray
with an unlined head. I suspect the lined flute (I heard one once, close up) would
project better but that doesn't mean the unlined flute
doesn't project well. I have a Eb Murray with a fully lined headjoint and it's less woody and projects
beautifully, but of course that may be the key difference at work.

[Nanohedron]

Jim, you still haven't defined what you mean by "cutting through". Do you mean loudness? Or is it projection? Or do you mean close-proximity audibility?

I mean projection, not loudness. I am aware of equally loud flutes such that one projects better
than the other.

It seems to me that to measure that, one would ideally have to have the same person playing various flutes at one sitting, and have at least one second party at various removes listening, to report the results. It could be done.

In my own experience at sessions, if I go outside and the door or windows are open, interestingly enough I can usually hear the quiet players almost just as well as the loud ones, indeed much better than if I were sitting right there. That's the flute projection phenomenon as I know it. So I guess to me that's the least of my own concerns, because it goes with the instrument.

I do believe that if one were to try to assess projection, it would be best done in the above manner, with many other instruments, or other interfering noise. Assessing the degree of a solo flute's projection might be something harder to pin down, but of course that's just a guess.

[Julia Delaney]

How many angels can dance in an unlined head?

[benhall.1]

How many angels can dance in an unlined head?

Three.

[flutefry]

Perhaps this is tangential, but I had an interesting experience 2 weeks ago. A multi-instrumentalist touring pro (Ireland, Canada, USA) who lives in town 6 months of the year brought his 2 working flutes (McGee Pratten and a Murray), and his favourite flute (Hayes from 1850s, high pitch). He wanted to try the R+R 2883 (large holes), and 4117 (small holes) I had for sale. I also brought out my Stephan Morvan. He is an aggressive and loud player with lots of glottal stops. We each played all 6 flutes for each other, and then commented on our thoughts about our own playing, and the other person's.

Listening to him, 5/6 flutes were more or less indistinguishable in tone, if one ignored cues like pitch and volume. Nevertheless, we both agreed that in his hands, one flute was clearly superior, the R+R 4117. There was just more solidity and presence in the tone. This surprised both of us since he makes his living playing his McGee and Murray, and so has much more time on these flutes than on the R+R 4117. To my ears, he sounded the same with the original HJ, and with the Olwell HJ.

His opinion was that I also sounded best on the 4117, least good on the Hayes, but otherwise, the others were much of a muchness.

This persuades me that the flute can make some difference, even with a high level player. YMMV

I agree with Nano's comment that the flute beside you can be hard to hear, when it is cutting through at a distance.

[popsnorkle]

...4117 (small holes) I had for sale. ... we both agreed that in his hands, one flute was clearly superior, the R+R 4117.

Was he the buyer?

[an seanduine]

How many angels can dance in an unlined head?

I've been told it depends on the size of their sandals. . .

Bob

[Gordon]

There are two phenomena important to me as a player - hearing myself while playing, and having people I'm playing with hear me. Whether or not the flute is louder or clearer outside the room, or in the parking lot, is less important. Nice to know, but less important. When playing alone, or in a quieter setting, subtle tones can be appreciated, but I've had the embarrassing experience of not hearing other flute players just a few feet away on their Rudalls, so loud was the Hamilton in my own hands. And - when playing a medium-holed Rudall myself, had friends say they couldn't hear me at all. So, if we're just talking about cutting a room, we're really talking much more about a player's approach and attack than the lining of their flute.

Makers strive for different things with their flutes, and construct the flutes - embouchure, bore, etc. - around that premise. Their preference for having a lining, no lining, or the ever-popular partial lining, reflects that, or at the very least finesses whatever sound they are after in their minds when they set out. Small wonder they prefer, or don't prefer, whatever is counter to their thinking or taste.

Ultimately, you can't have it all - subtle tones are lost in a less intimate setting, and too-loud Prattens can be played uncomfortably loud in quiet settings. While I'd have to agree that a lining has some effect, one way or another, in tone and projection, I'm not sure I'd agree on what that is, exactly, or that it matters all that much, beyond a subjective opinion.