Shoulder Stuff....

[DJiNN]

Hello there.

Been lurking around here for a while and although i've had a few Low D's (Including a Tipple, Love it) for a while now, i thought it best to get into the whistle first before i seriously started to play the irish flute.

Now the time has arrived at long last, and i have just purchased a rather lovely Desi Seery Delrin Low D (From a very nice guy on ebay). It's wonderful and i'm really enjoying playing it (In my own very limited fashion of course!) .... but in my effort to get a good, repeatable sound, i'm having a "Momentous" (That's what it feels like anyway) struggle!! I can sometimes get a good tone that sounds, to my ears at least, good and whole throughout the 2 Octaves? But then i'll put the flute down and pick it up again 5 minutes later and "Whoosh"... it's gone.... like it was never there in the first place!? What's that all about?

But, the biggest oddity that i have found (& this "IS" repeatable) is when i turn my body/head and rest the end of the flute on my shoulder ..... all of a sudden i get a remarkably good sound and every note is a delight!!?

Can anyone enlighten me as to why this could be? I don't want to have to keep resting the flute on my shoulder when i play as i would like the freedom of being able to move around etc.... but at the moment it seems that this is the only way i can guarantee a good tone?

Thanks one and all for your time and all answers are very much appreciated.

Jinian

[Cathy Wilde]

The anything-but-milquetoast-for-tone fluteplayer Conal O'Grada said that he started putting his flute on his shoulder because another great flute player, Peg McGrath used to, and he wanted to sound like her. IIRC the thinking was you could hear yourself better with your shoulder bouncing the sound back at you. And of course there's the steadiness factor ... anyway, there are a fair number of great players who regularly play with flute on shoulder: O'Grada, Catherine McEvoy, Harry Bradley, etc., etc., etc. So perhaps you've just stumbled across a good tool for establishing your own tone. Once you get more settled you can practice moving your shoulder away -- or not, if your neck doesn't bother you.

Others will say differently and I used to feel more strongly opposed to it as well, but after 10 years of this my neck and shoulder hurt plenty without putting the flute there, AND I don't sound like Conal (who moves around pretty freely here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDZ5yGRbe3c). Your results may vary, of course ... good luck and enjoy your new flute!

[Viking of Kiev]

Your flute just shakes when you move your fingers while playing and your embouchure is changing - you lose the sound. Shoulder is an additional support - you don't have to control how you press your flute to your lips by your hands - it just rests on your shoulder.

I've been playing without shoulder support for about 3.5 years and was all the time struggling with my flute as I couldn't get stable tone out of it. I had an old German flute and thought it was its fault. But once I happened to place the embouchure end of this flute on something beside me (don't exactly remember what it was - a back of an armchair, maybe ?) and was greatly surprised to have got a very stable sound throughout the range. Soon I discovered this shoulder support and since then play like this. Many of well known Irish flautists play flute-on-their-shoulder - Mike McGoldrick, Harry Bradley (who is being discussed here now in one thread), Catherine McEvoy, to name a few.

[chas]

I'm just glad you don't have a shoulder problem (I do, it doesn't generally affect my playing).

There are a gazillion possible explanations. For example, the flute is pushed up against your lip harder. (I go through periods [when I haven't played much lately] when my tone is better, especially in the second octave, when I push my tongue against my lower lip.) It may help stabilize he flute so that when you find your sweet spot, it's easier to hold it. It may just all fall together with you in that position.

As Cathy said, lots of great players play that way. It's not ergonomic for most people, but everyone's different.

[Steampacket]

Whatever works - Here's a great on the shoulder flute player Deirdre Havlin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93ELpmwhINY

[JackCampin]

Doesn't this make you more likely to develop neck and shoulder dystonias?

Do people who use that playing position do a lot of exercises to compensate?

[LorenzoFlute]

Avoid shoulder if you want to avoid problems.
Of famous players that play on the shoulder and have neck problems I know for sure of Catherine McEvoy and Garry Shannon, but I wouldn't be surpirsed if there were a lot more. Some players play on the shoulder only when they perform, to give them some extra confidence and firmness.

[Steampacket]

"Doesn't this make you more likely to develop neck and shoulder dystonias?
Do people who use that playing position do a lot of exercises to compensate?" JackCampin.

No pain, no gain No but, yeah but - both Harry and Deirdre are built like brick toilet facilities and work out five days a week at their local gyms.

[Etruscan]

Avoid shoulder if you want to avoid problems

I've been playing for 25 years now resting the flute on my shoulder (I'm not able to play otherways), and I never suffered any problem. There's no general rule in this, everybody reacts differently, so the best way is just experimenting.

[JackCampin]

The problem with dystonias is that you can get irreversible damage before you realize what's happening to you. "Experimenting" will work for some, others will not be so lucky.

If you intend to push your body into doing very unnatural things, you really need to be monitored regularly by somebody who can spot the problems before they become disabling, like a professional sports trainer, massage therapist or physio.

[Steve Bliven]

In line with the above, a while back I posted a note about an interesting (at least to me) book entitled "The Athletic Musician: a guide to playing without pain" by Barbara Paull (Orthopedic physiotherapist) and Christine Harrison (classical violinist). (Scarecrow Press, London, 1997; used copies from $16 US on Amazon or your local inter-library loan system might get it).

The premise is that musicians are subject to the same impacts from overuse injuries, including contortions necessary to their playing, as athletes and should approach their activities (including recuperation) the way an athlete (with supporting medical/training staff) would. It provides an explanation of how the various cervical and spinal nerves affect muscles, how overuse and/or poor posture can have significant impacts, and offers a series of warm-up, warm-down, stretching and strengthening exercises.

The exercises seemed to help relieve the pains in my shoulder from excessive flute practice.

Best wishes.

Steve

[woodfluter]

Observations by Jack Campin and Othannen should prompt serious consideration.
Yes, some very fine fluters rest the headjoint on the shoulder.
...Risk vs benefit.

Before I'd copy something like that, I'd want to know two things:
(1) Would they do this if starting out all over again as beginners?
(2) Do other players obtain equally good tone without the contortions?

If you go down that path it might become a crutch that's hard to discard, even if you escape injury.
Flute isn't the most ergonomic instrument out there at best.

Jinian, you wrote:
"I don't want to have to keep resting the flute on my shoulder when i play as i would like the freedom of being able to move around etc.... but at the moment it seems that this is the only way i can guarantee a good tone?"

Knowing that you can get tone by bracing does help...somewhat.
I'd suggest practicing in front of a mirror and analyzing exactly what is going on.
As already pointed out, there's a lot of variables.

You may be altering your angle of attack (perhaps more into the embouchure hole) when shouldering it.
...If so, try changing the rotation of the headjoint.
Or maybe the turn of your head corrects a mismatch in the lateral angle of the flute & your lips.
...You can fix that with a tilt of the head or raising the flute a bit.
Or pressing more of your lip over the hole.
...So, experiment with that.
Or just plain consistency?
...Wobble goes away with good hand position, bracing, practice.

Mirror works sometimes. Worth a shot anyway.
Best of luck and keep folks posted on progress.

[jemtheflute]

Echoing some of the above, whilst indubitably some ace players do shoulder-prop, with or without negative physiological consequences, there are good reasons to avoid becoming reliant on doing it - to do with playing optimally as well as with stress risks. Sure, doing it can act as a stabiliser for securing the flute head against the lip, but if you need that stabilisation that is simply a sign that you are not holding/supporting your flute adequately/appropriately and that you need to work on sorting that out. Bear in mind that the vast majority of transverse fluters, of all genres including ITM and of all standards of proficiency, do not shoulder-prop their flutes and have perfectly stable embouchures. Look to your hold! Help/advice on that is available.

[Etruscan]

At least in my case, I argue that the necessity to rest the flute on the shoulder comes from the curious fact that I'm right handed, but I I play the flute left handed (it's a long story... when I was very young I picked up my first flute in the "wrong" manner...). Maybe due to this, I still find impossible to hold the instrument in the classical posture: I tried again and again, but nothing. Anyway, at the end of the day, this peculiar position as I said doesn't give me phisical or musical problems, so I'm simply keeping with it.

[DJiNN]

Wow.... You people are amazing!!

So many great replies with really good insight and information.

I really appreciate everyone's input and thank you all for taking the time to give your thoughts. I didn't expect so many but i'm really really happy to have them all to read through & ponder.

After thinking about it some, my choice at the moment would be to use the shoulder if i have to, to get a good tone and cultivate a good style? Then, as time goes on, slowly start to move away from using the shoulder? A "Stepping Stone" on the way to wherever it is i'll finally be if you will?

"woodfluter" - you mentioned using a mirror? I think that's a great idea and will get one in place asap. I do have some small ones in the practice room but i think a bigger one would ultimately be better? Then i can check on the whole of my posture as i play as well?

"Steve Bliven" - That's good information about the book and i shall look out for it. I am lucky it would seem, in that i don't seem to get any problems from the strange positions that i find myself in from different instrument practice (Violin & Flute being the most prominent but also guitar). I sing for a living and have found that, from time to time, whenever i change the position of things that i use in the studio (Microphone placement and also Mouse & keyboard) i get a slight case of RSI for a month or two, and then my body seems to get used to it and adapts? After that it goes away and all is well, so maybe this applies to the flute as well? I do have good posture though and also, whenever i'm working, singing or otherwise, i ALWAYS stand up and NEVER sit down, so maybe this helps? I tend to agree with Etruscan with regards to everybody being different? What works for me perhaps wouldn't be the same for some others?

My main problem is getting a good, loud, "Dark" (Not sure if that's the correct word?) tone. I'm used to playing the Boehm flute and although i've only been playing a few years, don't have any problems with a decent sound? But the Irish flute is a whole other beast it seems, and although i can get sounds out of it and play OK, getting a good tone with good volume, only seems to happen "Properly" when i rest it on my shoulder?

I have been working really hard trying to get a decent embouchure and a good sound, and just that one simple movement (Which is nothing to do with the mouth really) seems to make this happen??? I've been looking for some decent videos on the net for embouchure but can't seem to find any? I have some books here (Just received my copy of Conal O'Grada's book today!! ) which do have drawings and descriptions of how it should be done, but even though i have read them i'm finding it difficult to get the mouth shape & sound that i'm after..... unless of course i use my shoulder and then it all falls into place? Very odd....

But still, i shall continue to play, practice & experiment, taking on board all the wonderful information and advice that has been shared here and see how it goes over the coming months. I really would like to find a teacher and do some "One to One" but there just doesn't seem to be anyone around here at all (Norfolk, UK) and i have looked and searched all over the place.

Many thanks again, to Cathy, Viking of Kiev, chas, Steampacket, JackCampin, Othannen, Etruscan, Steve Bliven & woodfluter. Thank you for really great input!

Jinian