Whistle intonation issue

[Katharine]

Hi all,
Hoping for a bit of advice. I recently bought an Impempe high D secondhand. I've been wanting to try an Impempe for a while as I love the sound of them. This one is one of Ian's early models; around 2006, I believe.

However, I was faced with an intonation issue immediately. I can't tell if it's me or the whistle. The F# seems to be flat (especially in the 2nd octave) and the G (and possible all notes from there up) seem to be sharp (in relation to the bell note). (I've asked a few other people to listen as I play and they all agree it's not just my ear in thinking it's off.) I can try to blow it into tune... I have moderate success with the F# but none at all with the G.

I don't have this issue on my other whistles (either the Ds or any of the other keys) but they're all cheapies-- Walton, Clarke Sweetone, Gens, Clarke Original, and then I also have a Mellow Dog D/C set. Perhaps I'm just not used to a higher-end whistle (I messed around briefly on a Burke at the local flute shop once and seemed to do okay, but that was the extent of my fancy-whistle experience) or a tuning slide (I tune the others by just moving the fipple/head, of course).

However, I believe I am at least the third owner of this whistle (as I believe the person I got it from also got it from someone else) and I doubt nobody else noticed an issue if there was one; I also doubt Ian shipped an out-of-tune whistle. So I have to think it's something in my technique. I just haven't any idea what. I don't know any other whistlers who could try it out for me and see if they can make it work.

Here is a clip; same thing on 4 different whistles-- a partial 2-octave scale, a quick rendition of Scotland The Brave, and a short bit of the intro to the song Con Te Partiro (because it displays the problem especially well). First whistle is the Impempe, second is my Walton D, third is my Mellow Dog D, and fourth is the Sweetone D. I apologize that the recording and my playing are both awful; I was in a super-duper hurry when I recorded this and did not have a chance to do more than run through each quickly (apartment living + busy life). If you ever wanted an example of my most terrible playing, this is it. But I've honestly not had time to re-do it-- it's taken me four days just to get the time to put it up online and post this. Sorry, guys. I'm not usually this bad, though heaven knows I'm not a good player. Also it's painfully obvious that I'm not even remotely used to the Impempe as I've not played it much. Caveats out of the way:

http://soundcloud.com/katharine144/whistle-test

I really like the sound of the whistle otherwise and would like to keep it (it has that weak-ish bell note I've seen reviewed on early Impempes before, but I can easily learn to work with that), but I need to figure out what I'm doing with the intonation.

[stanton135]

I have a couple of things to try. One thing to do would be to contact the maker. I've heard of makers that will take a whistle back and fix it for the price of shipping, or at least offer you some experienced advice. I've never personally dealt with Impempe, so YMMV.

Another thing to check is whether there's anything inside the bore. Anything that's inside there, even something small, can change the intonation of individual notes in weird, hard-to-predict ways. Here's a page that tries to explain how perturbations in the bore of a shakuhachi work, and how (if you're feeling adventurous) you can strategically create them to try to tailor the instrument's intonation to your liking (summary: easier said than done!). It's interesting reading--well, I thought so, anyway.

http://www.navaching.com/shaku/tuning.html

Hope this was helpful, and good luck with your whistle!

[Peter Duggan]

So I have to think it's something in my technique.

Since the intonation is absolutely terrible with no sign of the kind of dynamic changes I'd expect if your blowing was to blame, I'd say it has to be the whistle.

[pancelticpiper]

I didn't listen to your recording, sorry, but as a professional tuba player once told me (who plays a 20,000 dollar horn) "the perfect wind instrument can never be made".

His point was that every wind instrument, from the most expensive orchestral flutes, clarinets, horns, etc down to a 10 dollar whistle, all have intonation issues which must be corrected by the player.

On the other hand, I expect the whistles I play to be very, very close to perfect, and all the whistles I have (in every key from high Eb to low C) are near-perfect, and any intonation issues there are, are my fault, not the whistles' fault.

Most of my whistles haven't come from the maker with perfect scales and nearly all of them have been carved by me. One thing is that I want all the various keys to be tuned the same way so that I can pick up any whistle and not have to remember how to blow it to correct whatever issue it has... so I have evened them all out to be the same. (I'm not saying that some were "wrong", just that they were different.)

The first thing is to have a whistle that has good octaves, that is, say, low G and high G can easily be blown to be perfect octaves. If you have that, you can nearly always carve holes as necessary and even chop the bottom end if necessary. (I had one low whistle where the notes got progressively flatter as you went down from B to Bottom D, so I chopped the open end so that the D's were in tune with B and A, and then carved out the E and F# and G holes, the result being a very nice whistle.)

I have a large number of "cheapies" (Generations and Feadogs) and not a single one has come perfectly in tune from the factory. Every one has had to be carved. (The exceptions of course being the Jerry Freeman Tweaked Generations, which have had the tuning corrected by Jerry.)

I guess the bottom line is, if your whistle isn't in tune when YOU play it, then you ought to fix it. It doesn't matter if somebody else can somehow make it play in tune by special blowing... they're not the one who is playing it.

[MTGuru]

These things are really hard to diagnose long-distance.

First, I have an Impempe D from 2010 or so (thanks, Ian!). And it sounds nothing like your clip. The intonation is spot-on, it's responsive and balanced, with a strong bell note.

By all means check for obstructions. Not just the bore, but the fipple and windway, too. Even apart from the intonation, it sounds like your whistle is literally choking or strangling. Like a giant hairy spider crawled in there and died or something.

As for the tuning, you've almost got a whole tone D scale there - D E F# G# A# C (C#) D - but even that's not on pitch. And it's not so much that the F# is flat, but that everything above it is waaay sharp.

Are you sure it's not an Eb whistle that you've got pulled out too far? Is there an inscribed "D" at the bell end?

I tried various combinations of slide position and breath pressure, and can't reproduce the problem on mine.

Can you post a top view photo of the whistle, showing the holes and slide position? Maybe alongside the Mellow Dog - which is about the same diameter, and the holes should almost line up.

I'm sure Ian would take care of this for you. You deserve a good whistle. Meanwhile, maybe we can figure out what's wrong. And not to think ill of them, but maybe the previous 2 owners sold it on for a reason.

[Katharine]

Hey everyone--

Thanks for the replies. Not ignoring the thread-- just that my life's been going slightly upside-down lately and I've been swamped!


I just gave it a swab out with the piccolo swab I use on my whistles. Looked down both tube and head with a flashlight and didn't see anything more than dust.

Here's a second sound clip, slightly better. Not as far as intonation, though. Note that there was not any conscious attempt on my part to blow any of the notes into tune-- I used the same breath pressure across the spectrum as I do on most of my whistles (but most wouldn't need more than the slightest tweak on breath pressure/shape of my lips that I've noticed. This is a different bird).

http://soundcloud.com/katharine144/whistle-test-2


It's definitely a D whistle. Here are some pics:
















I have info as well that the previous owner got from Ian and passed on to me:

Hello sir;
I have one of your whistles that I got in a trade recently.
It looks very different from the current photos of your products.
It is a high D, no sticker or markings, and the fipple has a semi cucular cut.
Unlike now which look to be straight across, but with multiple bevel angles.
I hope this makes sense you.

Did you make whistles in another style and when would the dates be?
How would you compare the sound to your new products?
Thanks for your time!


My initial design was the one that you describe and the whistles were not consistent in their sound which was the reason I changed the design (early 2009). There were some that were exceptional and others that were middle of the road. I did not have a tuning slide on that design (although a few were made with a slide) I used to stamp a date on some of those whistles but sound like this was not one of them. I would guess at between 2006 and 2008.

Let me know what you think of the whistle, I would be interested to know also if it is in tune.

Hello Ian.
Thanks for the reply.
On second inspection it may have a date, though I thought it might have been a serial number.
#150706A, 15th of July 2006?
Sorry my eyes are not what they once were.
It has a tuning slide, a aluminium fipple block, and is well in tune.
I think that it is beautifully crafted, and while it has no vices, it seems to be one of the middle of the road
players.
I was thinking of selling it, but wanted to give full disclosure to the prospective buyer and while giving a
fair price to myself.

Yup, that would be the date and the 'A' would be the first one of the batch made on that day.


(There was also a pic of several of Ian's different designs of whistles-- found it sort of cool so I'll upload that too if anyone wants to see.)

[stanton135]

Hmm. The longer I look at the photos of your Impempe, the more it seems to me that you may have the body on backwards. Is it possible to take the two pieces apart and put the other end of the body onto the tuning slide?

The reason I'm suspecting that the tube's on backwards is that on nearly every whistle I've ever played, built, or examined, the B2 hole, which you open for F#, is the biggest hole of the six. If your whistle is put together correctly right now, all three bottom holes are nearly the same size, and T2 is biggest. I've never seen a whistle with a tone hole layout like that before.

[Kypfer]

FWIW, looking at the pictures ... the body isn't fitted "upside down" , is it? The "second hole down" looks rather larger than usual in comparasion to the rest, whereas if it was "second hole up" it'd look "more normal "

EDIT : Looks like stanton135 had the same idea

[Katharine]

OMG, you guys. It's possible. I wondered why the "D" was upside down (although it kind of made sense to me that it would be at the top end), and why the spacing of the bottom three holes didn't seem right.

The thing is, I have it together that way because of the end the tuning slide's brass piece is at. It never occurred to me that that could be in the wrong end. I suppose I could take a pair of pliers and try to pull it out and insert it into the other end? Or am I just going to risk killing the poor whistle? (I just tried giving it a firm tug and it didn't budge-- any harder and I was afraid I'd just hurt the slide (I don't have anything to put in as padding between the pliers and brass). Are these things usually attached somehow, or just tension-fitted?)

[Kypfer]

Don't use pliers, you'll almost certainly buckle it. Best to find something cylindrical to just fit inside the body of the whistle then use that to drift the tuning slide out, a wooden stick would be good. It's most probably just jammed in there and needs a little push to get it moving ... good luck

[MTGuru]

There's something very wrong with that hole layout.

Yes, it looks like the body is upside-down. But I'm not sure that's the whole story. If you turn the whistles upside-down to each other (with the inscribed "D" toward the bell) and try to match up the Impempe and Mellow Dog - and I just tried this photographically - the holes are still pretty far off. On my Impempe and Mellow Dog, the holes are a very close match.

So the problem might be an actual drilling/machining error.

If the tuning slide is part of the head (is it?), by all means try reversing the tube. Find a pair of rubber kitchen gloves, hand them to the strongest person you know (maybe that's you!), and have them firmly but carefully twist and pull the head and tube apart.

It might take some real effort. Ian seems to like close tolerances. And the first time I took my Impempe apart required 10 minutes, my monster grip, and some real oomph.

Let us know what happens!

[MTGuru]

If you turn the whistles upside-down to each other ... and I just tried this photographically - the holes are still pretty far off.

This is the best match I could get, by lining up what would be the B1 and B2 holes. You can see it's still not a good match. And while the B3 hole position might be explained, the tube would be too short.

[Katharine]

Here's a thread on one around the same vintage. Looks very similar.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42636

[Tor]

It must be that the body is turned the wrong way around. My 2012 Impempe has the 'D' near the bell end, and even if the 2006 model did have the 'D' at the other end it's unlikely it would have been printed that way - the key letter would normally be printed so that it's readable when you hold the whistle with the bell end down and the fipple end up. And the sizes of the holes confirms it, also when you look at the picture in the 42636 thread linked to above.

-Tor

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Get that tube turned the right way around and i am sure the intonation will be sorted!