Learning tune ornaments

[Zabava77]

I am beginning to learn rolls. What is a better way: to learn a tune first without any ornaments, or incorporate them right away?

[sfmans]

Well ... that depends ...

If you're learning a tune from sheet music, I'd be inclined to start thinking about where you're going to put ornamentation in straight away. The dots on the page are the skeleton of the tune, and the ornamentation is one of the things (phrasing, rhythm, dynamics being amongst the others) that brings that skeleton to life.

If you're learning a tune by ear from an accomplished player in your chosen style (I'm guessing ITM seeing as how its rolls we're discussing), they're most probably in there already ...

[NicoMoreno]

If you're learning from sheet music, you're most likely not going to have a clue where or how to put ornaments (cuts and taps) into the tune.

Get thee to a teacher!

By the way, I disagree about sfmans description of ornamentation. A better way to think about it is as articulation, rather than ornamentation (although it can be used purely as decoration).

[Zabava77]

If you're learning from sheet music, you're most likely not going to have a clue where or how to put ornaments (cuts and taps) into the tune.

Get thee to a teacher!

By the way, I disagree about sfmans description of ornamentation. A better way to think about it is as articulation, rather than ornamentation (although it can be used purely as decoration).

I have a few sources of learning: one being Brother Steve's Tin whistle pages http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... bits1.html, another - Online Academy of Irish Music http://www.oaim.ie/free-lessons/whistle, and a couple of youtube courses. In OAIM the teacher plays the tune first with ornaments, and then proceeds to teach a "plain" version without them. On Brother Steve's site ornaments are shown in the sheet music, and one is supposed to play them right away...

[NicoMoreno]

I've listened to a couple of the sample videos from OAIM. The "plain" version still has "ornaments" for the most part. And Brother Steve is quite right - unless you tongue everything (also an "ornament") you have to put something in the tune to separate notes, articulate notes, articulate phrases, etc.

So "ornament" is maybe better described as "articulation". You can definitely play tunes with very little articulation or ornamentation, but a certain amount is always needed. And if you're playing irish music, a certain amount is needed for it to be irish music.

[Zabava77]

Thank you! So I guess I need to play with articulation, which I do. It is just the rolls are much harder for me to execute smoothly than cuts and taps, and tonguing.

[NicoMoreno]

Yes, rolls can be challenging. One way to think about them that may help is to remember that rolls are just a cut and a tap... So instead of thinking of it in terms of this "block", think of how you are playing a cut and then a tap.

(Note, of course, that this is just one way to play a roll, and any good musician will vary this depending on the location and purpose. You might for instance want to play an extended roll or a reverse roll or some other combination of cuts and taps. It also helps you understand crans, since one type of cran you could play is simply two cuts instead of a cut and a tap).

[maki]

I still have issues with using ornaments/articulations and keeping the rythem.
Long rolls are particularly challenging for me.

[highland-piper]

Your ultimate goal is to internalize the style and become one with the instrument.

When I learn tunes from my friend who plays harp, I add the ornaments as I learn the tune. I obviously need to figure out my own thing, since my ornaments are going to be different from his. Sometimes I learn tunes on whistle; sometimes on pipes. The ornamentation approach is obviously different. It is subject to change on a whim.

To me, the best way to learn ornamentation, if you don't have a teacher, is to study recordings of great players. Figure out how they ornament a tune, note for note. Eventually you'll get it.

[Zabava77]

Your ultimate goal is to internalize the style and become one with the instrument.

When I learn tunes from my friend who plays harp, I add the ornaments as I learn the tune. I obviously need to figure out my own thing, since my ornaments are going to be different from his. Sometimes I learn tunes on whistle; sometimes on pipes. The ornamentation approach is obviously different. It is subject to change on a whim.

To me, the best way to learn ornamentation, if you don't have a teacher, is to study recordings of great players. Figure out how they ornament a tune, note for note. Eventually you'll get it.

I guess my only problem is that I want it all now. So I spend at least an hour a day practicing. Adding ornaments as I learn is really helpful, even though things proceed at a slower pace.

[highland-piper]

I guess my only problem is that I want it all now. So I spend at least an hour a day practicing. Adding ornaments as I learn is really helpful, even though things proceed at a slower pace.

I understand completely !

If you continue to practice for an hour a day, then after a year you'll have a basic grasp and in three you'll start to be pretty decent, assuming that your brain is wired like the vast majority of people who have been studied in this respect.

Here's one tip I got from a fiddler at a workshop. She suggested that as you learn each new ornament, you should put it into every tune you play, everywhere you can. Not that this is a performance goal, but that it is a learning exercise. She thought that if you did that, then over time it would help you learn what can go where, and how it sounds, and help you along the journey to understanding how to artfully ornament a tune. I never actually followed her advice, btw.

In Scottish Highland piping we are lucky in this respect. We have a well codified system or ornamentation, along with a vast library of ornamented tunes. Great pipers all play their own settings, and even publish books of settings, but for a beginner it's great to have well ornamented settings to learn the style from. Over time one learns the style and can ornament a tune on the fly.

[StevieJ]

On Brother Steve's site ornaments are shown in the sheet music, and one is supposed to play them right away...

That's only because the sheet music is there to provide a visual clue to what the pages are supposed to be showing you - i.e. ways of playing ornaments/twiddly bits. In other contexts I greatly prefer sheet music with no ornamentation indicated.

As it says elsewhere on Bro Steve's pages, sheet music is really, really useful - but only when you know what you are supposed to do with the tunes. Until you reach that stage it is far better to learn using your ears exclusively and your eyes not at all.

[StevieJ]

I am beginning to learn rolls. What is a better way: to learn a tune first without any ornaments, or incorporate them right away?

Later on down the road, long after you have solved this question to your satisfaction and are happily larding all your tunes with rolls, I recommend revisiting tunes you know well and attempting to play them without any rolls at all, keeping them as traditional-sounding as possible as you do so - as an exercise in ways of making your playing more varied, leaner, and generally more interesting.

[Zabava77]

On Brother Steve's site ornaments are shown in the sheet music, and one is supposed to play them right away...

That's only because the sheet music is there to provide a visual clue to what the pages are supposed to be showing you - i.e. ways of playing ornaments/twiddly bits. In other contexts I greatly prefer sheet music with no ornamentation indicated.

As it says elsewhere on Bro Steve's pages, sheet music is really, really useful - but only when you know what you are supposed to do with the tunes. Until you reach that stage it is far better to learn using your ears exclusively and your eyes not at all.

I see. So basically, I may be better off learning the tune first, and then decorating it. I shal try on tunes I already know by heart. Eather way, I am grateful to all who chimed in for their input. As far as online resources, Brother Steve's pages are invaluable to me: encouraging, spot on, and filled with good examples...

[StevieJ]

I see. So basically, I may be better off learning the tune first, and then decorating it.

Possibly - but I didn't say that. Figure out what works for you.

But when your twiddly bits are working well, and if you are learning by ear - as I encourage you to do - the question won't arise: you'll put them in naturally, without thinking, as you learn the tune from a good source (recording or live from another player).

And when you know the language well enough to learn from sheet music, then chances are that like me you'll prefer unornamented transcriptions because you'll shape them to suit your playing style and how the tune strikes you.

As far as online resources, Brother Steve's pages are invaluable to me: encouraging, spot on, and filled with good examples...

Good to know - thanks!