Irish? Scottish? Let's just call it "Scirish"

[benhall.1]

I thought it was a big thumb-pick

[Nanohedron]

Jinx!

[Denny]

yup, sure does

[cboody]

All the kilt stuff and pseudo "Celtic" stuff at Irish Fest bothers me. But I put it down to people having a good time and pretty much ignore it. OTOH all that semi drunken jumping around in front of the stage drives me nuts. And, so do the Trad/Contemp groups who seem to think that faster, louder, more out of tune and maximum drums are the key to true musical enjoyment.

But I believe we have to see these "Fests" for what they are: chances for large groups of people to get together and enjoy a day based on some very vague concept. Art Fairs are like that. The Ren Fest (at least the Minnesota one) is like that. There is almost nothing at the Ren Fest that fits into any historical period comfortably, from the costumes to the musical selections. I've always giggled when the big dinner is announced by trumpets playing a piece by C.P.E. Bach. I'd giggle at the Pachelbel "Canon" too, to say nothing of the Irish beer hall songs, the contemporary madrigals and the English madrigals 200 years off the target dates, the bassoon quartet, etc. etc. The Scottish Country Fair (at least when it was at Macalester ) was at least mostly Scottish...except for some of the music performers. And they were at least playing trad music and not comtemporary "versions" of it.

In sum, put all knowledge aside and enjoy what the Fest does provide. I had to miss Trian this year and was very sad...

[TheSilverSpear]

Haven't been to one of these in yonks, as I don't live in the US anymore. It always seemed to me that people didn't know or care about the differences and the local Highland Games -- in Estes Park, CO -- were a massive Scottish/Irish/pan-Celtic makey uppery gathering. There used to be a session tent for tune-inclined Irish players, a stepdance competition, a Highland piping competition, Highland games, lots of dudes in kilts, lots of green things for sale, a whole field dedicated to family history, as well as a huge tent selling things that would be better placed in a Medieval Re-enactment conventions. I mean, you could buy broadswords, daggers, cloaks (like they wear in the Lord of the Rings), funny hats, as well as instruments you don't want at your session like didjeridoos and bodhrans. Ain't never seen anyone in Scotland wandering around with a broadsword!

Ah well.... it often gives local tradheads a wee gig, so it's kind of a good thing in that sense.

[highland-piper]

I'm thinking of those performers, yer local folkies or rockers who don kilts and bodhráns to belt out bad Clancy Brothers / Flogging Molly / Chieftains covers at specifically Irish bars and fests. They're just appealing to audience (and promoter) expectations. But where did those expectations come from? Bill Whelan?

I understand now. I had been thinking you were talking about people you spotted wandering about the festival wearing Utilikilts.

Thanks!

People who ignorantly mix their musical influences bug me. When it's done intentionally, with style, after decent research, it can be pretty cool though.

[I.D.10-t]

It all kind of reminds me of going to the Renaissance fair. Spandex leggings? Chromium tanned leather? Tomato throwing? Turkey legs? Not likely. I'm sure the sheep herders didn't have fancy dog whistles, there were fewer goths, and ninjas wouldn't wear black and wouldn't have been in Europe.

When I go to a Chinese restaurant, I know most of the food is nothing like what you would get in china, and the food you get at a Mexican restaurant is not the same as what you would get in Mexico.

I go into an "Irish fair" with about the same expectations. Unless a venue has very specific rules for what is allowed, there is going to a lot of vender/performance drift. The best I hope for is that the 85% of the drift gives the 15% of those that have a genuine background in the tradition. I feel the same way about the kitsch some "Irish" pubs hang on their walls. Admittedly, I'm not one that knows what is "truly Irish" and cannot spot all that is authentic, but I do know much of it is a facade.

Unfortunately many people do not want to experience/understand the genuine article and are more comfortable getting a watered down stereotype.

....Or am I just being an Éir-ian snob?

I always think of a snob as someone that can find nothing good or enjoyable in something that doesn't measure up to their standards of perfection. A true snob wouldn't dirty their hands with such things.

Did you know that the line of Utilikilt originally designed for construction work had stylish rivet/grommet thingies in front, right where one's tender bits are? For those going "regimental", a few hot sunny days were enough to impress upon the maker a very practical reason to rethink that aspect of the design.

When will people learn.

1940's: War rationing reduces production. Heat conducting crotch rivets are removed after Levi CEO Walter Haas suffers embarrassing campfire burn.

[Nanohedron]

I must say I sometimes struggle with the overbearing 'Irishness' of C&F (folks apologising for discussing other stuff as if 'ITM' was the only true trad. etc.) when there's actually remarkably little set down to justify that...

Here's another thought, Peter: If C&F had been a nominally Canadian-oriented website instead of a US one, the majority music we'd be talking about here would in all probability be, in fact, Scottish and not Irish. There's a fair amount of historical reason for these differences.

[I.D.10-t]

I wonder how many Scottish tunes ended up in the US fife and drum tradition. I can think of several Irish and British tunes that have.

[Nanohedron]

A true snob wouldn't dirty their hands with such things.

But they'll think nothing of dirtying their mouth over it.

Easy for me to say. I've had my moments, and the things that bother tommykleen are the same things that bother me. Not at all to imply a charge of snobbery on anyone; this is in large part due to one set of goals and commitments coming into collision with another.

[I.D.10-t]

I guess I can get a bit annoyed when something claims to be authentic but isn't. The Renaissance Festival makes no such claims. The Irish fair has a mission statement that specifically states its goal to be promotion and preservation of Irish heritage and traditions. To expect them to follow their own mission statement seems to be appropriate. It seems the mission statement changes the standard to which they should be held, after all we already have a day for green beer and singing Danny Boy.

[Nanohedron]

The Irish fair has a mission statement that specifically states its goal to be promotion and preservation of Irish heritage and traditions. To expect them to follow their own mission statement seems to be appropriate.

Well, it can be said that they do do that; however, satisfying everybody is the great balancing act, so "as best as they can" might rightly follow. Depends on who's talking. When someone heartfully lamented a year or so ago that MN Irish Fair would fail and crumble to nothing for the lack of Flogging Molly (I think it was), she was dead serious. Being no follower myself and unconvinced of that outcome, I stifled my urge to laugh and just said, "Hmm." She may have been wrong after all; the fair's still there, alive and kicking and vulgar and as robust a hand in our pockets as it ever was.

[Katharine]

Hell, you guys; I see people at local Highland festivals dressed like they're going to a Ren Fest. And by that I do not mean "going to a Ren Fest in Scottish persona." Not to mention the booth that often shows up at the local Highland festivals selling stuff more suited to belly dance (don't get me wrong: I also enjoy belly dance. But it gives me pause, especially since I don't think I'd see a purveyer of kilt hose at a hafla). A little mixing of the Scottish and Irish doesn't faze me after that.

I suppose I'm too numbed by GHB bands in kilts in the St. Patrick's Day parade, going with the pipe band I used to dance with around to pubs on St. Patty's Day, having my style of dance called "Irish" even by people who've been told otherwise, etc. (I wish St. Andrew's Day or Robbie Burns' birthday or Hogmanay or Tartan Day or something would become as popular as St. Patty's so we're not always having to appropriate it just to get in some play/dance time, but oh well.) It's true: most of the public hasn't a clue. It's a wonder they know Ireland and Scotland are two separate countries to begin with. (Considering that Irish culture has always been more popular, what with Riverdance and Celtic Woman and the Murphy's and all, I'm surprised everyone's experience hasn't been the other way around.)

I don't worry too much about the super-traditional, though-- if I did, I suppose I'd be wandering around in an arisaid toting a couple bairns and wondering about my husband's dinner (and what I was doing away from the house and the coos anyway). Nope. Yeah, when I'm not in dance attire [that is, I lose the cutesy blouse and the silly waistcoat and the dance shoes], I'm the woman you see sporting, along with a kilt and matching argyle hose, a sporran and a sgian dubh and a t-shirt for my favorite local pipe band. (and yes, sometimes combat boots. Other times, my black Keens. I adore ghillie brogues but good luck finding them to fit a narrow-footed woman, and I only buy my leather secondhand anyway so the chances get much slimmer.) Go ahead and shoot me with a haggis for that.


And I admit I was sort of proud that my coworker wore his "Scotland" t-shirt to his going-away party at the Irish bar.

[JackCampin]

I wonder how many Scottish tunes ended up in the US fife and drum tradition. I can think of several Irish and British tunes that have.

Geography lesson: the Scottish ones would have been British too.

I just looked at the colonial fife tunes on my website (from some American fife band who vanished off the web). 28 tunes, of which 4 seem to be purely American, 12 English, 3 Irish, 2 French and 3 Scottish. (Some are post-colonial).

"Hail to the Chief" is probably the best known Scottish tune in that tradition, though just about nobody in Scotland would recognize it today.

[I.D.10-t]

Geography lesson: the Scottish ones would have been British too.

Should have said English. Time to break out the Venn diagrams again.