[Newbie] 3 Questions about High Octave

[ecohawk]

Apparently Peter types faster than I....

[ytliek]

Welcome to the Whistle Forum. I needed that lesson too.

[Feadoggie]

perhaps, some standard vented fingerings (eg OXXXXX for second-octave D) are actually vented harmonics

Ok, Peter, I'll go look into that one. From a whistle design perspective I have always thought of the vented second octave d as a primary pitch, the half-wave length of the bell note and not as a harmonic. I've thought the overblown second D (XXX XXX) as the harmonic. I'm confused - not a surprise there.

By the way some players use the harmonic tones to great and dramatic effect on the whistle. I was somewhat gobsmacked the first time I heard James McNally do it in the middle of a tune, Had to add it to my set of party tricks. And some whistles make it easy to hit them (flutes are still easier IMO).

Feadoggie

[Peter Duggan]

perhaps, some standard vented fingerings (eg OXXXXX for second-octave D) are actually vented harmonics

Ok, Peter, I'll go look into that one. From a whistle design perspective I have always thought of the vented second octave d as a primary pitch, the half-wave length of the bell note and not as a harmonic. I've thought the overblown second D (XXX XXX) as the harmonic. I'm confused - not a surprise there.

We had quite a discussion/argument about this a while back with some incorrect usage of numbers (ie first instead of second etc.) from myself among others, but I remain 100% certain that OXXXXX D and its XXXXXX equivalent are both the same harmonic!

[Feadoggie]

Peter, sorry I deleted my question below. I'll cut and paste it back in. I thought I'd just look into it a bit. And I am not being argumentative here. Thanks for the reference to the previous thread. I do remember it. I do realize that both tones are the same harmonic of the fundamental tone. My confusion/questioning has more to do with the role that the vented hole plays in the production of the note as opposed to the note generated when all the holes are closed. I understand the harmonic tones in terms of division of the fundamental wave. I'm wondering more about the vented note being the result of a shortened pipe as opposed to the expression of the same pitch as an overblown note in a longer tube. There are harmonics and then there are harmonics, so to speak.

Feadoggie

[Peter Duggan]

Peter, sorry I deleted my question below.

Likewise apologies for inadvertently quoting it while you were editing it out.

I'll cut and paste it back in.

So we could both cut it out if you prefer?

And I am not being argumentative here.

Yep, I know.

My confusion/questioning has more to do with the role that the vented hole plays in the production of the note

In this case I'd say it's not usually that significant apart from the arguably cleaner sound of the vented version (although testing a whole-hole fingered vibrato with T1 on OXXXXX should prove beyond doubt that they're the same harmonic when you can feel the continuous note). But access to some other notes obviously depends far more on the presence or absence of appropriate vents.

[hans]

To the OP, it might help to think of the higher notes, not in terms of blowing harder, but with a narrower emboucher and a faster stream of air. Kind of like puckering up your lips. While you do blow harder, you are not moving more air, you're just moving it faster. For example, it often takes a greater volume of air to play low notes on low whistles than high notes IMHO.

I find this description a bit misleading in the context of whistle playing. When you blow second octave notes, and higher, you increase the pressure of your air and create a faster air stream, as this is needed to excite the higher harmonics. And this also means you move more air through the fipple. About double as much as for the same note in the bottom octave. I test this blowing one long note till I run out of air, and for the second octave notes I run out of air double as quick, which means I moved double as much air.

Puckering your lips when playing high notes is interesting. I think it is a side effect for trying to blow notes sharper, by creating extra pressure. You are not really narrowing the wind way, or your mouth opening is not really narrower than what you have when playing first octave notes. After all you have the whistle beak between your lips. So I think the tightening of the lips may occur because of the extra pressure in the mouth, as a reaction to holding the pressure. If I focus to not tighten the lips I can still increase the pressure (and wind speed and sharpness of the note) through my diaphram alone.

The effect of a tighter embouchure to create a faster jet is happening when playing flute, as there is no fipple. And there you are not necessarily moving more air, just having a tighter, faster jet. Consequently a flute player can play second and third octave notes very efficiently and with much less volume, if she wants to, than a whistle player ever can.

[maki]

Great responses!
I never stop learning from you folks.

[ecohawk]

I do not intend to hijack this thread but I have measured my ability to hold a particular note and on most whistles, I can hold a high note much longer than a low note. I just tried it on both MK and Goldie low D's. Each much different than the other. On both whistles my ability to control the note before it deteriorates is nearly 2/3 longer for a second octave D than for the first octave D on both whistles. Maybe it is my experience level, which is much less than Hans, or because I use circular breathing.

I wasn't implying that one would actually pucker your lips when playing. I was trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to make an analogy. I do find that I tighten my embouchure and that on larger instruments it does tend to reduce the amount of whistle mouthpiece that remains exposed. So possibly my experience is different.

I had no intention to mislead anyone. I was merely relating how I visualize and perceive my own playing while I progress as a player. So YMMV.

ecohawk

[hans]

My apologies Michael! I did not want to offend, and I did not want to imply that you were intentionally misleading anyone. "Misleading" was a bad choice of word on my behalf, sorry! I thought you were describing whistle blowing in a way which is correct for flute playing, but not for whistles, and got the physics confused.

As to your experience with holding notes on low whistles: I do not know what is going on there. I can hold a first octave D a lot longer than a second octave D. But it needs more control, as it is a more delicate note. I have to consciously hold back and not blow too hard, and keep that lower diaphragm pressure constant. Never succeeded in learning circular breathing. That would be another interesting topic!

[Angel Shadowsong]

I learned something new.

it did sounded B on over blow...

weee