Lung Capacity/ Breathing

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
trill
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:44 pm

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by trill »

Mikethebook wrote:1. I'm learning to breath with the diaphram, the stomach extending out as I take in air, but then am I supposed to lift the chest and ribs extending the air intake further?

2. Does anyone have tips or exercises for increasing lung capacity . . . apart from obviously playing?
Mikethebook, I'd like to offer two breathing exercises.

#1: Lay on the floor with the heaviest book you own on your belly. Take long, slow deep breaths to raise + lower the book. Explore the limits of filling and emptying your lungs. Nothing rapid. No pain needed. Just carefully probe your limits.

#2: Lay on the floor, close you eyes, and focus your attention on your breathing. Calmly observe it. Then, slowly inhale your belly as far as you can. Then, over and above that, inflate your ribcage and upper chest. Slowly reverse. Approx 8sec to inhale, 8sec to exhale.

I got these from a music class I took that featured a "breathing gym".

Breathing uses muscles. Muscles can be strengthened. Patterns can be strengthened.

Note: this is not a recommendation on how to breathe while you're playing. It merely strengthens your breathing muscles and cultivates an awareness of your breath. Strong breathing muscles give you power and stamina. The awareness comes in handy when trying to find a good moment to breathe while playing, and, finding the right amount of air for the different notes and different octaves.

trill
Mikethebook
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:04 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
Location: Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

Trill, thanks for your tips. That they come from a music class "breathing gym" is great. I will try them. I have a device called Ultrabreathe (http://www.ultrabreathe.com/) which may replace the first exercise. Basically it creates a graduated resistance to breathing in as heavier books would do but so far I've only used it breathing in with the chest not the diaphram. I may now return to it and use it with the diaphram and see how it works. It can also be reversed so you build up breathing-out muscles too. The second exercise is interesting too. Plus I'll get back on my exercise bike. Thanks a lot.

Feadoggie, thanks for your additional feedback. I debated the hard/soft blowing choice with Colin when I bought my Goldie. Since I suffer with chronic daily headaches/migraines I decided the soft blower would be better . . . with not having to create so much pressure in reaching high notes. Plus Colin told me that in the last five years he has made the whistle head more efficient in its air usage . . . so a soft blower now doesn't use nearly as much air as it used to. In fact I had a Kerry Optima before the Goldie, which Phil Hardy designed to have low air requirements, and I don't find the Goldie uses discernably much more.
User avatar
bogman
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:27 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: N.W. Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by bogman »

This might sound daft, but don't worry about it. Breath problems are more to do with not having played long enough. Keep playing as much as possible then one day you'll realise your not thinking about your breathing anymore.
User avatar
Angel Shadowsong
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:42 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: QC Philippines

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Angel Shadowsong »

trill wrote:
#1: Lay on the floor with the heaviest book you own on your belly. Take long, slow deep breaths to raise + lower the book. Explore the limits of filling and emptying your lungs. Nothing rapid. No pain needed. Just carefully probe your limits.

#2: Lay on the floor, close you eyes, and focus your attention on your breathing. Calmly observe it. Then, slowly inhale your belly as far as you can. Then, over and above that, inflate your ribcage and upper chest. Slowly reverse. Approx 8sec to inhale, 8sec to exhale.

I got these from a music class I took that featured a "breathing gym".

Breathing uses muscles. Muscles can be strengthened. Patterns can be strengthened.

Note: this is not a recommendation on how to breathe while you're playing. It merely strengthens your breathing muscles and cultivates an awareness of your breath. Strong breathing muscles give you power and stamina. The awareness comes in handy when trying to find a good moment to breathe while playing, and, finding the right amount of air for the different notes and different octaves.

trill
This technique mentioned by trill has been applied by many singers. Though this is basic, many have neglected this as many people want fast results so they just scream out of their throat.


I have been doing this ever since I was 7 years old until now.

In singing we have what we call protagonistic or main muscle and the antagonistic or the supporting muscles.

The main is the abdominal muscle that supports the inflation and deflation of the diaphragm on front and side.

The support are the lats and the spinal erectae provide the support at the back.

The main and support muscles have a major role in sustaining long and high notes because long notes well...use a lot of air on a longer period of time.

Remember NOT to deplete or fill your air fully when singing or on playing, but you can on exercises.

If you fill it completely you will feel the need to burst it out. If you deplete it fully you will feel the need to engulf a lot of air.

In singing air budgeting is always observe and breath marks are placed on rests regularly or on parts where the keys are low (as it is easier to breath on low keys).

Most of the time breath marks are upon the discretion of the singer, but it is suggested that you breathe in air after the end of a line/phrase, as breathing in in the middle of the phrase sounds struggling.

It also applies to woodwinds where you cut the bars or measure where you feel you almost or totally deplete your air.


There are many exercises for diaphragm.

The Hiss is for capacity as it is filling then emptying.

If you want to strengthen your diaphragm do the

Hass...Has...has....hass..has in staccato but sustaining the SSSSS shortly

The staccato adds the motion of abs and back movement. It will also help you on air control and air budgeting.

Then if you want to increase the difficulty pronounce hash..hash.... in the same manner

notice that the SH sound use a lot of air.


Then if you want to increase the difficulty do this when your walking then on running...

Sounds crazy, but I do this vocalization even when running on the thread mill.

Locomotion use a lot of air as you need more oxygen in your blood, so moving then doing this will strengthen your lungs, your diap, your abs, your lats, your spinal erectae, and your legs.
Thus achieving many things in one.


In fact when I first tried my low D whistle 3 days ago, I had to struggle as the breathing is like singing sustained high notes several times.

Whereas, you dont sustain many high notes of your range, many times in singing, you just do that on highlights most often.

It is like singing highlights many times :P

I have been coughing until now, but not as worse compare to the first 2 days. It is not due to virus but to the reflex that I am learning on Low D.

It took me 2 days to understand the whistle's air requirements and air demands, and after vocalizing every time I cough suddenly the cough reflex stops. :)

Hope this helps




:thumbsup:

:D
Quote by Zig Ziglar: “Success occurs when opportunity meets preparation”
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5321
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by pancelticpiper »

Some people are talking about backpressure and how hard various whistle are to blow (that is, backpressure or resistance) but if I understand correctly the problem in the OP is the amount of air which passes through the whistle, the air volume or quantity rather than pressure.

On instruments with a high amount of resistance, such as the oboe, very little volume of air passes through, and I was told by an oboe teacher that the problem often is having too much air left in the lungs, so that the player has to exhale the stale air and inhale not to supply the instrument but to stay conscious!

On many whistles, on the other hand, the air flows through with practically zero resistance and a huge quantity of air is required.

I've bought and tried a large number of Low D whistles from various makers and the most air-efficient type I've tried is the MK. I can play much longer phrases on it than I can on, say, the Burke, which is the least air-efficient Low D I've come across.

Anyhow, keep playing! And regular exercise will help too... brisk walking every day, for example.

And try an MK if you can. You'll probably find that you can play longer phrases.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
kkrell
Posts: 4837
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Mostly producer of the Wooden Flute Obsession 3-volume 6-CD 7-hour set of mostly player's choice of Irish tunes, played mostly solo, on mostly wooden flutes by approximately 120 different mostly highly-rated traditional flute players & are mostly...
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by kkrell »

While normally sufficient playing should improve your breathing ability, some people do have difficulty in training certain muscle groups to operate properly. After kidney surgery in 2005, resulting in a paralyzed vocal cord, I had to have physical therapy to help my breathing. I could not walk across a room and speak at the same time, nor could I sing any longer. PT assisted me with both.

Here are some other breathing exercises I had previously come across:
"Arnold Jacobs' Breathing Exercises" (for trumpet)
http://fac.hsu.edu/bucknej/Resources/Tr ... Jacobs.htm

Kevin Krell
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
https://www.worldtrad.org
Mikethebook
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:04 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
Location: Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

Wow! Thank you kkrell and Angel for the additional exercises. I'll work my way through them. Bogman, your thoughts are very encouraging. Thank you.

And pan . . . you may be right about the MK though a friend has one and a Goldie like mine (bought about the same time) and I don't think he found any difference in breath requirements, though he finds the MK easier to play because of its smaller holes, I think. In buying a whistle I did think seriously about an MK, very seriously, but for me, it was always the ethereal "cosmic drainpipe" sound I first heard on Riverdance that drew me to the low whistle and, lovely though it is, I don't like the tone of the MK. That was the breaker. I also thought about Burke but its pure tone and high air requirements put me off.

But, yes, exercise would be good for sure. A good incentive to get back on the old exercise bike!!
User avatar
cunparis
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:50 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Paris, France

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by cunparis »

Two people mentioned the flute.. after playing whistle for 1 year I got a flute (that was about 4 months ago). I've made a lot of progress with it and I'm happy with my tone (considering I haven't had it long) but it does use more breath than a whistle. I'm curious if:

1 - I'll get used to it and my lung capacity will improve

2 - it's because my embouchure is inefficient and that'll improve and i'll be able to play longer

as it is now, I estimate the flute takes at least twice as much air as my MK low D. or should I say, I run out of air at least twice as fast (the flute isn't taking the air, my embouchure is wasting it).

Just curious because it's quite frustrating to not be able to play very long without gasping for air.
User avatar
Feadoggie
Posts: 3940
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: Stout's Valley, PA, USA

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Feadoggie »

cunparis wrote:Two people mentioned the flute.. after playing whistle for 1 year I got a flute (that was about 4 months ago). I've made a lot of progress with it and I'm happy with my tone (considering I haven't had it long) but it does use more breath than a whistle. I'm curious if:

1 - I'll get used to it and my lung capacity will improve

2 - it's because my embouchure is inefficient and that'll improve and i'll be able to play longer

as it is now, I estimate the flute takes at least twice as much air as my MK low D. or should I say, I run out of air at least twice as fast (the flute isn't taking the air, my embouchure is wasting it).
You might want to take this up on the flute forum. It has nothing to do with Mike's issue on the whistle being discussed here . The flute has an entirely different interface.

What type of flute are you playing?

With all due respect, and without sitting watching you play, my guess is that it is due to your embouchure assuming you are playing a proper flute. Four months is not very long (unless you are playing eight hours a day). :thumbsup:

As I pointed out above, the flute is enormously more air efficient than the Low whistle for the power of the tone produced. You probably need to tighten things up and get more focused, again just my guess. That will come in time, with patience and with practice. We've all been there at one time. Passing out is part of the learning process. :wink: :wink:

Feadoggie
Last edited by Feadoggie on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
User avatar
Denny
Posts: 24005
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29 am
antispam: No
Location: N of Seattle

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Denny »

cunparis wrote:I'm curious if:
2 - it's because my embouchure is inefficient and that'll improve and i'll be able to play longer
yup, dat's it!
Feadoggie wrote:Four months is not very long (unless you are playing eight hours a day).
naw, yer lips'll fall off by five or six hours
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
User avatar
Feadoggie
Posts: 3940
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: Stout's Valley, PA, USA

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Feadoggie »

Denny wrote:naw, yer lips'll fall off by five or six hours
I remember getting the quivering lip thing. It made for a decent Elvis impression.

Feadoggie
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
User avatar
Denny
Posts: 24005
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29 am
antispam: No
Location: N of Seattle

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Denny »

ya, me too.

thought it was a shame, as I had nothing better to do at the time.

I think that it was over a year, maybe 14-15 months, before I could go that long...
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
trill
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:44 pm

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by trill »

Angel Shadowsong wrote:air budgeting
*that* is a great phrase !
User avatar
chas
Posts: 7707
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: East Coast US

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by chas »

Feadoggie wrote:
Mikethebook wrote:I want to do everything I can to maximise my lung capacity.
Then I'd suggest taking up the triathalon or at least the marathon.
I agree with the triathlon, but marathoning doesn't work. Done quite a few and I still run out of breath on the flute. ;)

I don't believe anyone has pointed out the most obvious thing: breathe more often. I took lessons from a well-known flute player and, when I ran out of breath during a lesson once, he said there's no excuse. When I pointed out that I sometimes just can't play that long on a breath, he said, "There's no such thing as breathing too often, just not often enough." It was a tad tongue-in-cheek, but his point was to find more places to breathe. If you don't get a big-enough breath, take another really soon.
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
10Thistle
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:08 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: California

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by 10Thistle »

Denny wrote:oh yeah, the diaphragm is not a muscle :wink:
I believe it is... :wink: Technically a skeletal muscle under voluntary control (somatic nervous system)

Wiki definition... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoracic_diaphragm

Also, I second Trill's suggestion with the book on the belly exercise as I do somatic/"bodywork". The book doesn't need to be the heaviest, just heavy enough to give you feed-back. To start, focus on keeping your chest "quiet" and your belly as a "ball of breath" that expands in all directions, not just forward, when you breathe in. When you lie on your back (carpeted floor is good) bend your knees. You can even support them with a bolster or rolled up blanket, something somewhat firm but comfortable. But don't have to as long as you bring your heels close enough to your bottom, but not too close, to stand your feet comfortably. This is subtle yet powerful work so take care not to overwork. By working with your breath you are de facto playing with your body chemistry so don't be surprised if your state shifts e.g. sleepiness, yawning, flush face, "spacey-ness", etc. This is a good start. There is a whole series I do with students that adds variations when you are interested...
Post Reply