To thumbhole or not to thumbhole - that is the question!

[hans]

Yes to #1.
But regards #2:
That the thumb hole is for playing a C nat goes without saying.
But does it need to be opened for C#?
Some players may prefer to open it as well for C#, others not.
It depends on how one likes ones C#s, and also how the C#s are tuned.
For instance on a Burke whistle you need to keep the thumb hole closed to get a reasonable C#. If you keep it open, the C# is far too sharp. That is because the C# is tuned according to ET (equal tempered), as are all the notes, as far as I can tell. On whistles with more of a trad tuning the C# (as well as the F#, to name the two most important deviations) is flat according to ET. And it is even flatter if you want a OXXOOO cross-fingered Cnat. In these cases one can open the thumb hole to raise the C#, according to one's taste. But it is not necessary, just a player's preference.

[R Small]

On my whistles (which include a couple of Brackers, a Burke, and a W. D. Sweet) the difference between open C# (O OOOOOO) and thumbhole C# (X OOOOOO) is only 5-10 cents. Well within the range of being able to adjust the pitch with breath pressure. The Brackers have a dead on cross fingered C (X OXXOOO) and the thumbhole C# (X OOOOOO) is slightly flat (according to my ears and tuner) so I use the open C# (O OOOOOO) which is dead on and my preferred fingering anyway. The W. D. Sweet and the Burke have a sharp cross fingered C (X OXXOOO) and the C# is best in tune with the thumbhole fingering. On the W. D. Sweet I partly closed the first hole with tape to lower the pitch of the open C#. I haven't done this to the Burke. The thumbhole C# is probably the easier of the two C# fingerings for most traditional diatonic scale tunes. While, as I mentioned above, the open C# has the advantage when moving up or down chromatically. This is not as complicated as I'm probably making it seem. Hans has explained it well. And I should add that Hans tuned my (Bracker) whistles according to my notion of a fully chromatic whistle in equal temperament tuning and are not based on his usual tuning scheme.

[Annamal]

Hi, all. I'm a complete whistle 'newbie' (technically, I haven't even really got started ) so please forgive my lack of basic knowledge .

I'd like to know more about whistles that have a thumb hole at the back and, specifically, if the fingering is the same as that on a flute. I'd be very grateful if any of you guys can help me out here .

I had some flute lessons as a kid, but never really got beyond the beginner stage. The only fingerings I remember are as follows (X represents a covered hole and O represents an open hole):

XOO OOO C
O



XOO OOO B
X




XXO OOO A
X




XXX OOO G
X

I know the conventional flute is in C key, so I suspect I'd need a C key whistle with a thumb hole... (?)

(Edited: Somehow my finger chart thing got all squashed up on the original post, so I've reformatted it to make it clearer.)

[Denny]

you were doin' okay until ya told us ya knew somethin'

this one is in "C"


this one is in "D"


the problem is that they're in two different naming conventions.

These notes finger the same on both

Code: Select all

D  XXX XXX
E  XXX XXO
G  XXX OOO
A  XXO OOO
B  XOO OOO
C# OOO OOO

the odd bit is that XXX XOO is F nat on the metal and F# on the wood

C natural has different fingerings on different whistles (try first octave OXX OOO)

The problem is that without all the key work there is a bit of compromising about the pitch of C & C# on a whistle.

Adding a thumb hole might reduce the compromise.

[MTGuru]

Hi Annamal, welcome. I like your name.

Yes, your Boehm flute fingerings are now correct, and they're equivalent to a whistle with a C thumb hole. But frankly, if you're just starting out, a thumb hole is the last thing you should worry about, and Boehm flute fingerings the second-to-last thing. Basic trad whistle technique requires neither, though your flute experience will probably help you. After you've played for a while, you'll be in a better position to judge the various technical and physical options available. So relax, enjoy ...

[Annamal]

Thanks for the advice, guys!
I may be back for some more in the near future...

[Peter Duggan]

Yes, your Boehm flute fingerings are now correct

Strange... I could have sworn that G was still wrong (even allowing for L2, L3 and R1 'covering' two holes each)!

[Denny]

golly G

[MTGuru]

Yes, your Boehm flute fingerings are now correct

Strange... I could have sworn that G was still wrong

Right, of course ... it's xxxooo with the thumb. Sloppy reading on my part.

[Denny]

readability, that's what the space between the hands is for...

[Annamal]

Back again!

Could anyone recommend a UK based whistle company that sells reasonably cheap whistles with thumb holes (or will put one in for me)?

Thanks .

[stanton135]

I've never felt any particular need, in terms of ease of fingering, for a thumbhole in preference to oxx ooo. I am somewhat persnickety about intonation, and so I use whatever fingering for C natural gives the best tuning. On my homemade low D, that's oxx ooo, by design. On my Freeman Gen D (an excellent whistle) the best intonation for C natural is obtained with oxx xox AND a slight drop in breath pressure. That in itself, in most instances, is no problem.

However, there's a certain type of rocking figure (ecgc acgc), occurring in for example The Humours of Scarriff and The Chicago Reel, that presented me with a problem on this Gen. The fingering transition between the G, the A, and the oxx xox C natural was awkward but undoubtedly doable, after some practice. The lowered breath pressure that oxx xox took, though, made it seem impractical. This same passage was easily manageable on my homemade low D that takes oxx ooo at a breath pressure comparable to the higher notes.

Eventually I opted to drill a thumbhole into my Gen. That totally fixed my problem with the ecgc acgc figure, and has made several other passages marginally easier to finger. I liked it. I went and drilled thumbholes in ALL my cheapies that don't take oxx ooo very well.

But, as much as I like the result of the thumbholes on my Gens, I still don't find it as convenient or esthetically pleasing as a whistle that happily responds to oxx ooo. I haven't tried putting a thumbhole in any of my oxx ooo whistles, and I don't think I'll ever be motivated to.

[educciman]

High my friends,
I just want to share my expiriences with drilling and playing a thumbhole into standard-cheap SUDSATO-KILDARE whistles.
I you want to have one, it's easy to make it by yourself - it takes only a few minutes to drill a small hole and to open it up until it's in tune. It does'nt matter, if the hole is set in-line or a little offset, just like you prefer it - it is up to your needs:
I made this improvement on every SUSATO I own - and of course in any other of my DIY ethnic-windinstruments .

Happy X-mas to all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vOncHopa2Y

[Jleo Fipple]

High my friends,
I just want to share my expiriences with drilling and playing a thumbhole into standard-cheap SUDSATO-KILDARE whistles.
I you want to have one, it's easy to make it by yourself - it takes only a few minutes to drill a small hole and to open it up until it's in tune. It does'nt matter, if the hole is set in-line or a little offset, just like you prefer it - it is up to your needs:
I made this improvement on every SUSATO I own - and of course in any other of my DIY ethnic-windinstruments .

Happy X-mas to all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vOncHopa2Y

Thank you for the video demonstration I have a Susato Kildare so I must look more into how the thumbhole might make the whistle more versatile for my playing.

[daiv]

I play with a c thumbhole and wouldn't have it any other way. It is more in tune, has a better tone, is easier to play, and I can do more things tonally and with ornamentation. My Burke whistle has a thumb hole and so does my tweaked Freeman Generation (thanks, Jerry!). I don't really buy the traditional argument: people just aren't used to it. The only situation that the tradition argument holds any weight is in competitions, as whether or not you agree, you will be disquaified for using a thumb hole in any fleadh.

I guess it is extra work to learn how to play a thumbhole, but it never made sense to me why that would be a problem. Playing music is extra work in general! When I started the concertina, I had to start from scratch. Instead of blowing like on the flute or whistle, I was squeezing, and there are 6 c naturals for 4 octaves. In short, playing the concertina is a lot of extra work! Also, different concertinas have different note layouts, which can cause a lot of problems for C#. Instead of declaring that one way is right, I put the extra time in and can play any concertina. Push C# on the first or second button, I can do it, never mind shoving in an extra pull or push C# somewhere, too!

I am not saying anyone should do it, but until you have spent a few weeks with it and tried to make it work, you can't say that you do or do not like a c natural thumbhole. Music is hard. Switching to a keyed flute took me a full year to get used to. After a day, of course I didn't find the c natural key easier than cross fingering! After a year, I got really frustrated any time I played a keyless flute and there was no key for c natural. By now, I'm used to it. I can play two different vented fingerings for c natural or the key on the wooden flute, and I can even play the c natural hole on a wooden flute, too! On the whistle I can do the vented fingering, the c natural thumb hole, and in competitions I do the half hole because when it's important I put the extra work in (sounds great in airs, too). On the silver flute, I play the notes as they are designed (foot joint, first finger, and 4th octave cross fingering), and when I played classical I could do all sorts of harmonics and trill fingerings that I haven't touched in a while. For flute and whistle, that amounts to 8 different unique c natural fingerings on flute(s) and whistle. So, to me it seems odd that anyone would complain about learning one extra type of fingering to make their music better. Especially since if you want to make your like easier, you can always just press "play" and let someone else do all the hard work of playing music for you