How popular were flutes in 19th century USA?

[Jayhawk]

Jim - I think there is not question flutes were around, including here in Missouri, so I'm sure they played all types of music depending on who was playing. However, I think David (I'm too lazy to look back over 3 pages of posts) points out that Old Time Music, as it is known today, is based upon instruments from the early field recording days, and flute was not found in this tradition at the time...or not appearing in enough numbers to be recorded.

I say play what you like, and if your friends don't mind, play in old time sessions...but I'm not sure there is sufficient evidence to truly tie flute to the old time tradition.

Why does it really matter?

Eric

[jim stone]

Jim - I think there is not question flutes were around, including here in Missouri, so I'm sure they played all types of music depending on who was playing. However, I think David (I'm too lazy to look back over 3 pages of posts) points out that Old Time Music, as it is known today, is based upon instruments from the early field recording days, and flute was not found in this tradition at the time...or not appearing in enough numbers to be recorded.

I say play what you like, and if your friends don't mind, play in old time sessions...but I'm not sure there is sufficient evidence to truly tie flute to the old time tradition.

Why does it really matter?

Eric

Can't find anything from David on that. In any case, I would suppose the piano keyboard probably wasn't in the field
recordings either, but it's being used in OT groups in MO; so appearing on the recordings isn't required for an instrument
to have a place in OT.

It matters because, along with people who are very pleased I'm there (say it sounds 'great' and compliments
the other instruments) there is the very rare complaint about purity, made for its own sake.
"That isn't the sort of instrument on which OT is played!'
That an instrument was occasionally
used in ensembles at the time the music we play was originally played seems a strong response.
It gives the instrument a reasonable claim to authenticity, even if it wasn't central to the tradition.

If folks objected to the sound, I would take the complaint more seriously.

[Jayhawk]

But there's really not anything out there to prove it was used in OT music back in the day...only the fact that it was an instrument played during the same time period. Just because you can't prove that it wasn't used doesn't prove it was.

New instruments enter traditions all the time. Bouzouki was NOT played in Irish trad music back in the 1920s, but Irish flute was as proven by old recordings. However, bouzoukis are accepted now and no one I know would have an issue with one at a session.

I still say play what you like. Maybe you're a trend setter, maybe your not...but it doesn't really matter. Even if you're the first, someone has to be the first.

Eric

[Julia Delaney]

Jim, you are playing the flute like a fife. The name of the tune is Liberty and it's a great OT tune. Called Ti Jean in Canada. Played by bluegrass bands as well. One of the big ones.
I think you should get a fife and consider playing in a fife and drum band, where that huffy style is more appropriate than the more legato style used in ITM.

[JS]

Even if you could find photographic and phonographic evidence that one afternoon Tommy Jarrell called up a friend from the fire department band and played the definitive fiddle and euphonium version of "Cluck Old Hen", and even if it is true that an early edition of Bill Monroe's band included an accordion, that doesn't mean that a group of musicians in a session who are trying to sound like Uncle Dave Macon's band or the North Carolina Ramblers or even the Highwoods String Band are being unreasonable if they are unenthusiastic when I sit down and pull out the Copley. Maybe they're being purists, maybe they're regrettably uninterested in the full historical record, but if they're looking for a particular sound in which a repertoire of tunes are played with particular stylistic nuances dependent partly on which instruments are included, it's worth courteously recognizing and respecting that intent.

[Denny]

*cough* let's keep a grip on our reading level here, okay?

[crookedtune]

I personally hate the term 'oldtime'. It's as broad and subjective as 'celtic', 'rock', 'classical' or 'jazz'. Silly, really.

I'm with JS on this. If the group is going for a particular sound --- say the Galax VA stringband sound --- then don't bring the flute. If it's an anything-goes situation (no derision intended) then knock yourself out.

To me, there's a time to work at preserving/reenacting styles and a time to break out and explore. Not mutually exclusive.

[Jayhawk]

Jim, you are playing the flute like a fife. The name of the tune is Liberty and it's a great OT tune. Called Ti Jean in Canada. Played by bluegrass bands as well. One of the big ones.
I think you should get a fife and consider playing in a fife and drum band, where that huffy style is more appropriate than the more legato style used in ITM.

I think that style fits the tune rather well and can envision it being played that way in a old time session. Not sure if it's Jim's overall personal style or the way he plays old time tunes, but my wife really liked it.

Eric

[Gordon]

Also think there's a difference between joining a session with an uncommon instrument and creating a band playing the same music with whatever instrumentation it wants. An established act using uncommon instruments for the music help those instruments become acceptible as the norm. Old Time, almost by definition, seems to think of itself as purist, whether that's historically accurate or not - kinda like walking into a Tea Party meeting and saying - hey, fellas, here's a new idea!
But if flutes were heard, playing appropriately (I think David's onto something about using a fife, or at least playing flute less Irish-ey), in a band that really evoked the spirit/feel of OT, then OT sessions might be more amenable to flutes sitting in.

[jim stone]

Even if you could find photographic and phonographic evidence that one afternoon Tommy Jarrell called up a friend from the fire department band and played the definitive fiddle and euphonium version of "Cluck Old Hen", and even if it is true that an early edition of Bill Monroe's band included an accordion, that doesn't mean that a group of musicians in a session who are trying to sound like Uncle Dave Macon's band or the North Carolina Ramblers or even the Highwoods String Band are being unreasonable if they are unenthusiastic when I sit down and pull out the Copley. Maybe they're being purists, maybe they're regrettably uninterested in the full historical record, but if they're looking for a particular sound in which a repertoire of tunes are played with particular stylistic nuances dependent partly on which instruments are included, it's worth courteously recognizing and respecting that intent.

Agree entirely.

[jim stone]

Also think there's a difference between joining a session with an uncommon instrument and creating a band playing the same music with whatever instrumentation it wants. An established act using uncommon instruments for the music help those instruments become acceptible as the norm. Old Time, almost by definition, seems to think of itself as purist, whether that's historically accurate or not - kinda like walking into a Tea Party meeting and saying - hey, fellas, here's a new idea!
But if flutes were heard, playing appropriately (I think David's onto something about using a fife, or at least playing flute less Irish-ey), in a band that really evoked the spirit/feel of OT, then OT sessions might be more amenable to flutes sitting in.

I agree here, too. And in fact I'm often playing fife--or anyhow Sweetheart flutes pitched in G and in A.
The point is to play the instruments in the style of the other instruments in the group,
so that it blends with the way the music is played. I think our instruments can do that.
The idea is to extend Irish flutes into another front, to increase the repertoire and
the performance possibilities. That's probably grandiose, but I do think it might work.
A good deal of 'OT' music is beautiful (to wit, 'Liberty,'), it isn't ITM but generally
it sounds good on Irish flutes (IMO) played in the style of the music. Well, you see,
why not open up another front?

[jim stone]

But there's really not anything out there to prove it was used in OT music back in the day...only the fact that it was an instrument played during the same time period. Just because you can't prove that it wasn't used doesn't prove it was.

I agree. I'm not trying to prove it was used, only that it probably was. It was a popular instrument that, like most popular instruments, was
almost surely used to play popular tunes of the day, a good number of which are preserved in the OT repertoire.
In addition it sounds good on these tunes and blends well with fiddles, guitars, banjos. It's also portable.
So (I conclude) it's a good bet that flutes were occasionally part of the ensembles that played these tunes.
Forgive the pedantry.

Thanks to you and all for all the helpful conversation. I agree with all that if people are after a different sound,
it's time to pack up the flute. To the best of my knowledge I've never run into that (playing OT over a decade).
Just recently heard the 'purist' objection ("THAT's not an OT instrument!") for the first time and got
ticked off.

Last observation is that the great Irish flooters, like Chris N., who cover these tunes are playing them in their
own style. That's great but it doesn't bring the flute much closer to the tradition.
What I think I (we) should do is sit in with OT groups (e.g. jams) and play the tunes on flute
in THEIR style. Thanks again.

[RudallRose]

well, truth be told.....the music of the civil war (not the field music, that is, which was indeed fifes)....
was mostly brass (and assorted wood winds such as sax and clarinet)

here's a photo: http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot2044.jpg

Flutes (band flutes) were available, but they didn't really get to be in the fold until ~1920.

Music of the 1800s was initially fifes/drums, but they were militia, a few tattoos here and there.

The meat, though, was the brass, as horribly impractical as it appears they were to carry around, they didn't break like a wood flute/fife would/could.

Here's an etching of the period:
http://muncyhistoricalsociety.org/wordp ... vilWar.jpg

no flutes there, or fifes for that matter.

Here's another i really like....and nary a flute/fife to be seen.
http://www.nhtroubadour.com/wp-content/ ... r-band.jpg

i love the african-american boy to the right, who is clearly in a fitted uniform of the north.

[jim stone]

Thanks for these great photos. Most informative.

My interest is not civil war music proper (music of the civil war), played by bands, etc,
but music popular around the time of the civil war, and after,
which includes all sorts of tunes (e.g. Stephen Foster tunes, and a lot of tunes that we now
play in OT jams). People throughout the 19th century probably played music together a good deal at home
and in get-togethers,
as there wasn't much else to do for recreation, and my claim is that flutes were probably part of
THAT mix, at least occasionally, when tunes we now play as OT tunes were originally played.
After all they were there, they sound good playing the music, they're portable,
and people tended to pick up and play the instruments they had.
That flutes probably weren't part of military bands is consistent with this
and OK with me.

I need very little here.....Not saying flutes were part of military bands, not saying that
military music was played on flutes, not saying that flutes were as important as
fiddles or guitars in the 'sessions' that made up a good deal of the recreation of American
life. Only that it's likely that, when folks sat around at night playing music together,
flutes were occasionally part of those sessions.

[Julia Delaney]

... it's likely that, when folks sat around at night playing music together, flutes were occasionally part of those sessions.

Is there any contemporary instrument about which this would not be true? Who could disagree with this? Your statement is so general that it is meaningless. It's like saying "it's likely that, when folks sat around at night playing music together, a dog was occasionally in the room." It sheds no light on your original question regarding the popularity of the flute in Old Time music, yet you assume it offers some resolution. Bad philosopher!