Changed my Embouchure. Tone is better, but notes are sharper

[Ballygo]

I changed my embouchure, by stretching, my bottom lip across my teeth, a lot more that i used to. The result is , a much reeder sound, and brighter. Easier also to get lower notes. But the pitch has become higher/sharper, especially in the second octave , and I now having to pull out the tuning slide, about 20mm, which is way more than before. Is this an incorrect embouchure style? Im also positioning the embouchure hole, in line with the finger holes, and not facing in as much as before.This allows me to stretch the second finger left hand, thus making it a little easier to roll the B note, which has been a problem in the past. I play a Hammy Hamilton 4 key flute.

Ballygo

[jadphoto]

Hi,

Tightening the embouchure and turning the blow hole away from you will both sharpen the flute.

If the tighter embouchure is giving you the tone you want then I'd stay with it and roll the head joint back in a bit.

If the flute is sharper in the second octave you might check the head plug position. With Boehm flutes there is a mark on the cleaning rod that indicates the proper placement. I don't know if this is the case with your instrument, you could check with Hammy to see what's correct for your instrument.

JD

[Cubitt]

Your head cork may benefit from being repositioned. Do this: get a wooden dowel and insert it into the headjoint. Where the dowel is visible thru the embouchure hole, take a pencil and mark a vertical line down the center of the dowel so that the line is at a right angle to the headjoint. It will look alot like a cat's eye. You now have the present position of your cork recorded so that you can come back to it if you need to. Now, use the dowel to push the cork a few millimeters back. This will flatten the flute enough so you won't have to pull out so much at the tuning slide. Test the flute to make sure your relative pitch is good and that your lower octave is in tune with the upper octave. This practice can compromise your third octave relative pitch, but you're unlikely to care if you mostly play ITM. Besides getting the flute to be flatter to compensate for your improved embouchure, you're likely to find your overall tone stronger in the lower octave.

[LorenzoFlute]

Cubitt this is wrong, changing the head cork position is not going to make the first octave flatter.
Ballygo, try covering more of the embouchure hole with your lips, and blow streigth into the hole against the edge. Make the air stream thinner and increase the speed without changing octave. By covering more, it may take some time to get the strong tone come.
I find it useful to close the tuning slide a bit and try to play along with someone playing at concert pitch, adjusting your own with your lips.
I don't know if you're familiar with this page:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the ... k_tone.htm

[Cubitt]

Cubitt this is wrong, changing the head cork position is not going to make the first octave flatter.

How do you know? He can try it and if I'm wrong, no harm done. But I am not wrong.

[Denny]

It affects the higher frequencies more.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/fluteacoustics.html#cork

[Aanvil]

Uhh... actually Alan, cork position affects 2nd and 3rd octaves mainly. 3rd being the most. It's fact. Sorry.

There is harm in handing out incorrect information especially to someone that isn't experienced enough to know the difference.

We should be careful.

[Cubitt]

Uhh... actually Alan, cork position affects 2nd and 3rd octaves mainly. 3rd being the most. It's fact. Sorry.

Well, to paraphase Groucho Marx, who should I believe, you or my own ears?

This trick was taught to me by David Shorey, who knows a thing or two about vintage flutes. By readjusting the cork my flute is now flatter which gives me a greater range for adjustment if I need to tune sharper, which was a problem for me. I now have somewhere to go. It was my own discovery that the flute also plays more strongly in the lower octave, but that has since been verified by Terry McGee on his website. He recommends pulling the cork out as far as you can whilst still keeping good intonation in the first two octaves, which was my recommendation.

Besides, as I said, if it don't work, go back to Tab A.

EDIT: Just to make sure I am not crazy, I just tried pushing the headcork in a few mms. I had to draw the tuning slide out another quarter inch or so to tune to my electric tuner on A and E. I reset the cork and I was in tune at a quarter inch less. That's quite a lot of variance in tuning for relatively small movement of the cork. Before anyone gets too invested in what they think is scientific fact, a little real-world experimentation might be in order. BTW, I've found this to work on three different flutes, but to Denny's point, I don't know how it would work on a Boehm given the parabolic head, which is what seemed to be illustrated in his link.

[Aanvil]

(edit) oh never mind.

[Nanohedron]

...who should I believe, you or my own ears?

You may want to ponder that more deeply, much as it pains me to say it.

He recommends pulling the cork out as far as you can whilst still keeping good intonation in the first two octaves, which was my recommendation.

This is not the same as maintaining that cork position sharpens or flattens lower 8ve pitch.

Before anyone gets too invested in what they think is scientific fact, a little real-world experimentation might be in order.

In keeping with the spirit of the call for empirical research I have just played with the cork in various positions (simple-system, here) and checked pitch as well as compared 8ve intonation (I would have done, anyway, just be able to truthfully say I had) and, as I have noted time and again, the lower 8ve's pitch is unaffected in any appreciable degree if at all. I would say not at all. The 2nd 8ve, however is affected.

You can say I'm either mistaken or a liar - you choose - but I'm none of those.

[jemtheflute]

I've done an awful lot of fiddling with stopper positions in my time. IME (since Cubitt wants "empirical") it does not affect the general pitch centring aspect of tuning at all. Dunno what's going on for Cubitt, but in both theory and practice it isn't normal and should not do what he describes.

To the OP I'd say, yes read Terry's link etc. Changing embouchure may necessitate adjusting the stopper as blowing style and hole coverage affect the behaviour of the octave tuning the stopper is used to adjust. Having the stopper further back than just the head bore diameter is advantageous to low end tone production. I suggest you set the stopper 21mm back from the embouchure centre to start off. Then try moving the flute a little lower on your lip, don't over-stretch your lower lip, arch and protrude the top one and blow down, as if trying to blow a fly off your chin. Keep the embouchure hole fairly open - in line or nearly so with the finger holes is fine. The blowing down will make you flatter, as will the protruding upper lip, but the more open hole should at least partly preserve the advantages you observed in your 1st post.

[Cubitt]

I've done an awful lot of fiddling with stopper positions in my time. IME (since Cubitt wants "empirical") it does not affect the general pitch centring aspect of tuning at all. Dunno what's going on for Cubitt, but in both theory and practice it isn't normal and should not do what he describes.

And bumblebees shouldn't fly. With all due respect, my friend, it's a fool's argument to deny what is. You just can't make a persuasive argument. For the third time, I say if it doesn't work, no harm done. Are you honestly suggesting the OP shouldn't try? Would I have done myself a favor by listening to you, Aanvil and Nano instead of now having a better flute than I had before?

And please remember that I wasn't the one to come up with this notion. It was suggested to me and (gasp!) I tried it. Tried and succeeded, I might add.

[Denny]

sorted then?

[Cubitt]

sorted then?

Youbetchabygollywow!

[jemtheflute]

I've done an awful lot of fiddling with stopper positions in my time. IME (since Cubitt wants "empirical") it does not affect the general pitch centring aspect of tuning at all. Dunno what's going on for Cubitt, but in both theory and practice it isn't normal and should not do what he describes.

And bumblebees shouldn't fly. With all due respect, my friend, it's a fool's argument to deny what is. You just can't make a persuasive argument. For the third time, I say if it doesn't work, no harm done. Are you honestly suggesting the OP shouldn't try? Would I have done myself a favor by listening to you, Aanvil and Nano instead of now having a better flute than I had before?

And please remember that I wasn't the one to come up with this notion. It was suggested to me and (gasp!) I tried it. Tried and succeeded, I might add.

The angry buzz of the fly in a jar it flew into may be more strident than that of the ones flying free. I believe that thing about the bumblebee has been scientifically debunked, anyway.
I did not deny that you think you experience what you say you experience, Cubitt. I, like others, related my contrary empirical experience, which is supported by the scientific theory. Regarding David Shorey's advice, many makers and experts advise that withdrawing the stopper enriches low register tone and enhances power there. I've not heard one claim it significantly changes the core pitch of the flute (or, as has been previously and multiply debated here, the tuning of any single note). Perhaps Dave S might comment?