Help - Atholl Highlanders

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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Cathy Wilde »

I should clarify and say that even though I've been playing it for 15 years, and it's not really fraught with peril anymore, I'm very rarely happy with how it comes out.

FWIW, I find it helpful to NOT think of those ACE BDF patterns as arpeggios (even though they are). One other thing I can hear that might work there, at least for practicing slowly, is a tight Cde or def piping triplet, ala A(3cde) A(3cde) B(3def) B(3def). I would be cautious with those, though -- until you can get them really, really tight, which takes ages of practice, especially on the flute -- they can be dangerous to your rhythm.

Anyway, I think the real problem is that lots of people play it crazy-fast. My theory is that "Fiddlesticks" infected a few fiddlers, and the speed disease has just spread from there. Sort of like the dreaded "Tam Lin." <meh> People tend to rush on upward patterns to start with; add a few frantic flutes and weekend-warrior rhythm players and it's off to the races. And like Peter says (and the Frankie/Mairead recording shows), it's a nice enough tune when it's played with bounce instead of as a rushing torrent of notes.

The Fiddlesticks recording I'm referring to is in the Track 15 set here: http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Traditional ... B0000037EC and even though this part is the Jig of Slurs, you can tell the pace is pretty bright to start with.

But at the end of the day, since it isn't quite as much of an ergonomic nightmare on even the D whistle, maybe just make it one of your whistle tunes. I kind of have, and I like its character on the whistle more anyway; it gets a bit cute and bippety. If you want to sidestep the G# in that "walk up" that a lot of people worry about in the 3rd part, you could try BCd ~ee (short roll)_e ... or BCd ~ee_d, or a short e roll with a breath (~ee'), or even a clipped long roll on the e (BCd eee') with room for a breath (that's the ') before the next a. I'm sans whistle at the moment, but I think I usually do a short-e-roll-breath-d combo there.

Or, of course, you could just develop the world's loveliest marchy bouncy version of it and see if you can cure your session-mates. Maybe it'll catch on and you'll have done a favor for all tunekind. :-)

Sorry for the rambles! I'll go away now. Good luck!
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by jemtheflute »

Have to say most of this thread (apart from the advice on tempo and the comments about the poor, beat-up old tune) puzzles me!

There are no G#s in the setting I know/play unless you find incidental variational ways to insert one. I learnt it by ear over many years, though, so can't pretend to "have" an orthodox setting of any reputable provenance. It is pretty much a long-standing stock tune at English Barn Dances (as they used to be called before the Young Farmers started using the term for discos in a barn and folkies took to using "ceilidh/ceili) especially used for stock dances requiring/usually danced to jigs such as The Gay Gordons and Circassian Circle.

The B music arpeggios under discussion are not/should not be any harder on transverse flute than on whistle (if you're holding the flute properly!), and apart from being somewhat unfamiliar patterns in Irish music so maybe don't "fall under the fingers" as readily to ITM-only players, they are not at all difficult.

The discussion about articulation also baffles me. What difficulty is there in playing the over-the-break arpeggios legato? There is no need to tongue, glottal or finger-articulate the Ace Bdf patterns. Moreover, I would argue that, until you can do them cleanly with perfect finger-co-ordination, it is best to practice such passages legato as tongue or throat stops mask/evade sloppy finger timing. I wouldn't articulate them anyway save perhaps for a special effect variation.

FWIW, the D music offers an opportunity to get in some middle D 5-finger taps to separate those repeated open C#s (cAc cAc) - good for your co-ordination and effective.
Last edited by jemtheflute on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Peter Duggan »

jemtheflute wrote:There are no G#s in the setting I know/play unless you find incidental variational ways to insert one.
What I've been trying to say, Jem...
I learnt it by ear over many years, though so can't pretend to "have" an orthodox setting of any reputable provenance.
So have just been ABCing this one from Logan's tutor (NB pipe gracings omitted and key signature added for clarity), and would suggest that (as well as noting the absence of G#s) the dotted rhythms and Scotch snaps are strong hints re. the tempo and bounce of the tune...

(Edited 24 February 2012)

X:1
T:The Atholl Highlanders' March
S:Logan's Complete Tutor for the Highland Bagpipe (edited as noted below)
N:Pipe gracings omitted and key signature added
N:First part anacrusis (cd) changed to c/d
N:Second part anacrusis (e) added
N:Repeat signs adjusted to suit
M:6/8
R:March
L:1/8
K:AMix
c/d|:e3 e>cA|e>cA B>cd|e3 e>cA|B>cd c>BA|
e3 e>cA|e>cA B>cd|c<ae f>ed|1 c<dB A>cd:|2 c<dB A2e|
|:A>ce A>ce|B>df B>df|A>ce A>ce|B>cd c>BA|
A>ce A>ce|B>df B>df|c<ae f>ed|c<dB A2e:|
|:a2e e>dc|a2e e>dc|a2e e>dc|B>cd c2e|1
a2e e>dc|a2e e2d|c<ae f>ed|c<dB A2e:|2
a2e a2e|f2f e2d|c<ae f>ed|c<dB A2B||
|:c<Ac c<Ac|d>Bd d>Bd|c<Ac c<Ac|B<GB B>cd|
c<Ac c<Ac|d>Bd d>Bd|c<ae f>ed|1 c<dB A2B:|2 c<dB A3|]
Last edited by Peter Duggan on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Cathy Wilde »

Lovely. Meanwhile, this would be the version I hear the most in the States (with the g#):

X: 1
T:Atholl Highlanders, The
R:jig
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:A
~e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|~e3 ecA|Bcd cBA|!
~e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|eae fed|1 cdB Acd:|2 cdB A2A||!
Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|Ace Ace|Bcd cBA|!
Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|eae fed|cdB A2A:|!
a2e edc|a2e edc|a2e edc|Bcd efg|!
a2e edc|a2e edc|~e3 fed|1 cdB A2A:|2 cdB A2B||!
c2c cAc|d2d dBd|c2c cAc|B2B B=GB|!
c2c cAc|d2d dBd|eae fed|1 cdB A2B:|2 cdB Acd||!

Jem, maybe you could spend a little time with this one and weigh in on it?
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by jemtheflute »

Cor, don't make life easy for us and post the dots (from the ABC) too..... (but I can play dirty too....)

This would be a fair representation (unornamented) of how I have it (and I think, written more simply, this is very close to what Peter gave above - I should trust my ears more! :-)):
T: The Atholl Highlanders
R:jig
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:A mix
e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|e3 ecA|Bcd cBA|e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|eae fed|1 cdB A3:|]
[|:Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|Ace Ace|Bcd c2B (or dcB)|Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|eae fed|cdB A3:|]
[|:a2e edc|a2e edc|a2e edc|Bcd c2B (or dcB)|a2e edc|a2e edc|eae fed|1 cdB A3:|]2 cdB A2B|]
[|:cAc cAc|dBd dBd|cAc cAc|BGB BGB|cAc cAc|dBd dBd|eae fed|1 cdB A2B:|]2 cdB A3|]

One might just possibly go for a terminal flourish with |ef^g a3| a last bar to end on; but see the "Comments" on the tune's listing over on The Session over that!
Last edited by jemtheflute on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by andref »

Hi jem

In the first place let me thank you, Peter and Cathy, for all the time invested in my stupid quest.
jemtheflute wrote: The B music arpeggios under discussion are not/should not be any harder on transverse flute than on whistle (if you're holding the flute properly!), and apart from being somewhat unfamiliar patterns in Irish music so maybe don't "fall under the fingers" as readily to ITM-only players, they are not at all difficult.
The issue on the whistle and the flute is not holding the instrument on the passage. It is easier, also not because of fingering, which is not complicated, but because of the minimal amount of air one need to start the sound on the whistle, while on the flute, *on fast passages over the break*, for the next note to sound clear, a new air push is required (at least for me) Thus I have to tongue it or use a "glotal air push". This is only when playing fast. In the video I linked, I can do a legato at that speed, but not at the speed of my session.

Hey, I know I'm a noob, and things will get better, but for the moment it is just seems hard!
jemtheflute wrote:
The discussion about articulation also baffles me. What difficulty is there in playing the over-the-break arpeggios legato? There is no need to tongue, glottal or finger-articulate the Ace Bdf patterns. Moreover, I would argue that, until you can do them cleanly with perfect finger-co-ordination, it is best to practice such passages legato as tongue or throat stops mask/evade sloppy finger timing. I wouldn't articulate them anyway save perhaps for a special effect variation.
Again, that's just the speed issue. I just have finger coordination issues on this tune if I'm tonguing, where minimal differences in the mouth or the fingers speed can cause complete catastrophe, as is the case!

And a provocative thought: Could any of you ladies or gentlemen, care to do do a nice sped up recording of this little beaten up old tune? :D That would be precious for me and the future generations of frustrated flute players :D
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by hans »

Jem, your version is much like Cathy's version, except you note it as A mixolydian, not A major. As a pipe tune it is clearly A mix, and Peter's version I think is closest to the Scottish playing. Cathy's version is much like the abc from Henrik Norbek's abc collection. Both are noted a A major, and have that strange run | Bcd efg |, as does Jem's. That does not feel right to me, and Peter's version has not got that.

The only hiccup I have with Peter's version are the jumps to high A from C:
|c/2a3/2e f3/2e/2d| ,or |c<ae f>ed |
I am not used to that, but play an E instead: e<ae f>ed
It is just easier on the whistle, but probably just right on the pipes. It is more or less a grace note.

The low G in the last part is confirming the mixolydian nature, and the origin as a GHP pipe tune.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Peter Duggan »

andref wrote:And a provocative thought: Could any of you ladies or gentlemen, care to do do a nice sped up recording of this little beaten up old tune? :D That would be precious for me and the future generations of frustrated flute players :D
Think we'd be doing far more for you all by persuading your session to slow down to something approaching sanity!
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by MTGuru »

andref wrote:So we play it (not me though!) at "blazing speed"! Using your way of measuring a jig's tempo (which makes sense) we are playing it around 180-190 bpm. That's why it's so hard!
If that tempo is accurate, then it's also crazy, except as a bad joke. :really:
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Peter Duggan »

hans wrote:Peter's version I think is closest to the Scottish playing.
Not too surprising when it's from a printed pipe setting! :wink:
The only hiccup I have with Peter's version are the jumps to high A from C:
|c/2a3/2e f3/2e/2d| ,or |c<ae f>ed |
I am not used to that, but play an E instead: e<ae f>ed
So did I (for years and years and years) till I looked it up this evening, but have to say I'm now rather liking the C(#) as well as the variant ending to the third part... and had already belatedly noted that more legible <> shorthand for dotted rhythms (so guess who's still not that familiar with ABC?) since thinking the full way too cumbersome to encourage use!
It is just easier on the whistle, but probably just right on the pipes.
Although I'd say the C#'s no harder on whistle or flute...
It is more or less a grace note.
And have to disagree there when it's still very much part of the melody (whether C# or E) to me.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by jemtheflute »

hans wrote:Jem, your version is much like Cathy's version, except you note it as A mixolydian, not A major. As a pipe tune it is clearly A mix, and Peter's version I think is closest to the Scottish playing. Cathy's version is much like the abc from Henrik Norbek's abc collection. Both are noted a A major, and have that strange run | Bcd efg |, as does Jem's. That does not feel right to me, and Peter's version has not got that.
Ooops! That was an editing miss :oops: (well spotted, Hans). I borrowed and adapted Cathy's ABC and missed that - alterred it in the B music but not the C music. Sorry! Have edited it now. I don't ever play it that way, nor can recall hearing it thus.

andref, I had been kinda contemplating doing a demo clip at slow and "normal" speeds. I don't think a mega-fast one would serve any useful or desirable purpose. Dunno if I have time/energy right now anyway, but just maybe....

As for the arpeggios at speed, I still do not understand, even allowing for where you say you're at developmentally on the flute, why playing them faster should necessitate more attack ("push") on each note. If anything, if you have the fingering clean, legato should be the easiest way to do them! Are you adjusting your embouchure properly to get the 2nd register or are you overblowing by blowing harder? Is that the crux of the problem, I wonder? Try practicing them reversed, starting on the top note and dropping down |ecA ecA|fdB fdB| - slurred, no articulation or pushing or increase (or decrease) of air from the lungs while doing this, just embouchure control. Do it slowly at first, work up to high speed. Then combine downs and ups |ecA Ace| etc, then ups and downs |Ace ecA|. When that's running well, go back to the tune/playing them in context.

Now, if breath pulses are rhythmically appropriate (they are), sure put 'em in where they belong rhythmically, but don't use them to register-shift notes. Come to think of it, in the down-up and up-down arpeggios, where you have a repeated note, try breath-pulsing (no glottal or any stop or finger articulation, just a pulse from the lungs) on the on-beat, i.e. on the repeated note - the first note of each triplet when you do sequences of them. It's an opportunity to practice that rhythmic device in context of concentrating on something else, and will also mean you have to push on the lower octave note without overblowing it at the bottom of the wave shape of the repeated up-down-up arpeggios. Kinda thus, where underscore = breath-pulse this note: |Ace ecA|Ace ecA|...... Then move on to doing it on the tune phrase |Ace Ace| Bdf Bdf|....
Last edited by jemtheflute on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by hans »

Peter Duggan wrote:
It is more or less a grace note.
And have to disagree there when it's still very much part of the melody (whether C# or E) to me.
Well you are right of course, and I am sloppy with what I call grace notes :) But it is a rather short note, and a kind of leading note to the top A. The emphasis is clearly on the A. - And I am going to practise that C# - A jump, it intrigues me.
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Nanohedron »

MTGuru wrote:
andref wrote:So we play it (not me though!) at "blazing speed"! Using your way of measuring a jig's tempo (which makes sense) we are playing it around 180-190 bpm. That's why it's so hard!
If that tempo is accurate, then it's also crazy, except as a bad joke. :really:
I'll say. :o
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by Peter Duggan »

hans wrote:The emphasis is clearly on the A.
Have to disagree again there when the whole point about Scotch snaps is that the emphasis is on the short, on-beat note (something I try conveying to my pupils by getting them to say 'porridge'!). So, while the A's higher and would get the emphasis if you ditched the first note and took it on the beat (quite nice in its own way if somewhat irregular here), the short C# or E gets the accent as it stands.
And I am going to practise that C# - A jump, it intrigues me.
Have just been trying the whole thing that way on both whistle and flute (at a proper lilting march tempo too) and am really quite taken with it!

(So what was all that about poor, beat-up old tunes, and is it really more about poor, beat-up old usage?)
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Re: Help - Atholl Highlanders

Post by hans »

This looks interesting and well presented:
Bagpipe Lesson for the 6/8 March - Atholl Highlanders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGPD9hwR ... re=related

Interesting that he mentions at the beginning that the jig version is an entirely different matter, rhythm wise.

This version is played as a jig, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwicASDq ... re=related
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