Testing Instrument Player's Perceptions

[Doug_Tipple]

This text was done with violins, but it pertains to other instruments, as well. The conclusions are about what I would have suspected.
Can you pick the Strad?

[kkrell]

I think we covered this in
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82636

It would have been helpful if the violin study included the experience of each person playing both instruments themselves.

[Doug_Tipple]

I think we covered this in
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82636

It would have been helpful if the violin study included the experience of each person playing both instruments themselves.

Yes, Kevin, we have covered this topic, and thanks for the link. But I'm guessing that we will cover it again and again. That's just the way of online forums and social networks.

With regard to your second comment, I think that it said in the report that all of the survey participants were professional violinists with extensive experience. The survey did not report the opinions of unprofessional listeners.

[kkrell]

I think we covered this in
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82636

It would have been helpful if the violin study included the experience of each person playing both instruments themselves.

Yes, Kevin, we have covered this topic, and thanks for the link. But I'm guessing that we will cover it again and again. That's just the way of online forums and social networks.

With regard to your second comment, I think that it said in the report that all of the survey participants were professional violinists with extensive experience. The survey did not report the opinions of unprofessional listeners.

I have to revise my comments, as I misread the article. It appears that the players DID get to play all six instruments themselves and report their preference, so they DID experience the playing characteristics, not just the resulting audio files we (as article readers) are presented in Doug's original link. Carry on.

[MTGuru]

But what about the blood in the varnish?

[LorenzoFlute]

I'm pretty sure though that with "irish" flutes it's quite a bit different.

[Grizzle]

Maybe "Irish" flutes it would be different, but here is a flute test done by Galway. He lists the 16 flutes in the video comments but I dont think he originally labeled what order he played them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0n3n3N3SOY&sns=em

[Steampacket]

"I'm pretty sure though that with "irish" flutes it's quite a bit different." Othannen wrote.

Not sure about that, I think that the statement below could also apply to Rudalls and such. Mind you there's nothing wrong with working hard to become a a better musician.

"There's some myth-making that helps old instruments," Thomas said. "If you give someone a Stradivari and it doesn't work for them, they'll blame themselves and work hard at it until it works." http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/ja ... radivarius

[chas]

I'm not sure whether to be more or less surprised by this vs. tests with flutes. On the one hand, I think the player/instrument interface is more important with the flute, so that the tiniest differences in the embouchure cut might make a huge difference in the sound the player gets from it. On the other hand, things like materials, just where the soundboard is thinned, etc., may make a huge difference in the feel and sound of a violin.

And the player/instrument interface may play a bigger role in fiddles than most think. I'm reminded of a story a friend told me several years back. His mother played for a major symphony orchestra, and every year they would have to have their instruments appraised, and for some reason, a list of all the appraisals was posted. Her violin was the least expensive, and by a wide margin, like a factor of four, which was always a cause of embarrassment for her and a little ribbing by her colleagues. One evening at a party after the performance, they were at a party for the soloist, who was a real bigwig, someone like Yehudi Menuhin, Isaac Stern, etc. The soloist is in a heated discussion about some piece and wants to demonstrate something with a violin. My friend's mother is the only one with an instrument, so she gives it to this guy with mumbled apologies. He diddles a few notes on it, then plays the phrase he's been talking about it with this huge, full sound that she could never coax from it. He hands it back and says, "What a remarkable instrument, who made it?" Nobody gave her a hard time about her instrument after that.

[Cubitt]

I have a few points to make on this subject:

1. Sometimes a superior instrument makes more of difference to the player than to the listener. It may be louder, more reedy, respond more easily, be easier to handle or finger, etc. These are largely subjective judgments, although some makers' flutes achieve a concensus among players on these points of superiority.

2. A similar case can be make on the effect on the listener. Sometimes you hear a recording and wonder what kind of flute the player used. However, much of the appeal may lie with the player more than the instrument.

3. Aside from pure skill on the part of the player, plus any affinity he or she may have with their own flute, there are other factors that may result even in the hands of a merely competent player like me. I was at David Shorey's house yesterday (a dealer in vintage flutes and a member here - fine fellow!) and I was playing one of his flutes whilst he was toying with mine. He looked up and said, "I don't know how you're getting such a fine tone out of that instrument." I looked at the head and saw a very long crack through the embouchure at least an eighth of an inch wide. I was still getting a very nice sound out of it, but David had less success. So, should I look for flutes with cracks in the head?

One thing has been consistent among friends and other listeners I have spoken with: They all prefer the sound of my eight-key over that of my solid silver Boehm.

[jim stone]

I think that the musicians ought to have taken the respective violins home for a couple of weeks.
I think one gets to hear an instrument more accurately, and find out what's in it, by playing
it for awhile. First impressions, ya know. Sometimes what first seems best turns out to
be less good, and vice versa. Doubtless all good violins.....

[Terry McGee]

What's interesting, in comparison to flutes, is that violins have not substantially been improved in the last 300 years, despite the large amount of science and art applied to them since. (Although, to be quite fair, we have to remember that the Strad will have had its neck reset to the modern angle, and its bass bar enlarged to withstand modern stringing. Had it been left set up as a baroque fiddle, we should have little trouble in telling the difference.)

The conical flute had just been invented around that time, and remained a 1-key instrument for a long time thereafter. So, almost all of its development has happened since. I guess this late and slow start is largely behind the period of feverish development in the middle 19th century.

Imagine the comparison of a modern Muramatsu with a flute by Hotteterre - I can't imagine anyone unable to tell the difference. Though it might promote a lively discussion on babies and bathwater!

Terry

[LorenzoFlute]

I'm not saying that antique flutes are better or worse than the new ones, but we should usually be able to tell the difference. Good modern "irish" flutes are (usually) more responsive, louder and more in tune. Good antiques (usually) have a distinctive sound that differ from the distinctive sound of modern flutes (don't get me wrong here, of course each maker makes different sounding flutes).

[Doug_Tipple]

As Terry mentioned, the antique flutes in this survey most likely have been altered so that the top is strong enough to support greater tension strings and that the neck angle has been changed to allow for a higher, more powerful sounding bridge. I think that the interesting thing about this survey/test was that professional violinists, who had an opportunity to play all of the instruments (modern and old) with blinders on, could not reliably tell the difference between the two in terms of performance (sensitivity, etc.) and tone. That tells me that the modern violins are being made in a centuries-old tradition. I don't think that the same thing could be said for conical flutes, where you would expect competent players to detect the differences more readily.