Yet another Rudall for sale on eBay!

[benhall.1]

You were, of course, still the closest guess, Jon.

If you do get to see it, let us know about it if you can, will ya?

[jemtheflute]

@ David. Are you saying you think the footjoint of #7232 isn't conoid? I don't think you mean that, but it isn't clear... FWIW, I know it isn't a D flute, but my RC&Co 8-key F flute (pictured above) has a conoid Bohm foot.

[RudallRose]

@Jem
Nope, not suggesting it definitely is....but I have not seen a concert D with a conoidal boehm foot.
They have been french slides, typically solid body, and boehm foot.....cylindrical.

that's not to suggest they are not out there.......an F flute is interesting that they'd do that.

anyways......i've not seen it and the catalogue hasn't either

[kkrell]

@Jem
Nope, not suggesting it definitely is....but I have not seen a concert D with a conoidal boehm foot.
They have been french slides, typically solid body, and boehm foot.....cylindrical.

that's not to suggest they are not out there.......an F flute is interesting that they'd do that.

anyways......i've not seen it and the catalogue hasn't either

David, the foot looks like a conoidal bore to me in the pictures. Note the width of the wood and opening size at the socket (picture #9), versus the thick wall and small diameter bore at the end of the foot (picture #15). I do see that the keys and pads are Boehm-style in that they appear evenly sized (and large) compared to typical pewter-plug type D, C# & C keys, but I'm presuming that the tuning is corrected by hole placement and venting height.

[Jon C.]

@Jem
Nope, not suggesting it definitely is....but I have not seen a concert D with a conoidal boehm foot.
They have been french slides, typically solid body, and boehm foot.....cylindrical.

that's not to suggest they are not out there.......an F flute is interesting that they'd do that.

anyways......i've not seen it and the catalogue hasn't either

David, the foot looks like a conoidal bore to me in the pictures. Note the width of the wood and opening size at the socket (picture #9), versus the thick wall and small diameter bore at the end of the foot (picture #15). I do see that the keys and pads are Boehm-style in that they appear evenly sized (and large) compared to typical pewter-plug type D, C# & C keys, but I'm presuming that the tuning is corrected by hole placement and venting height.

Pratten flutes have the sames size tone holes on the foot notes, so it should not be a problem. This flute reminds me of a similar set up, the later Hawkes & sons that I used to have, it also had the Bohm foot keys. I will let you guys know in a couple of weeks, when I take it for a spin...

[jemtheflute]

I will let you guys know in a couple of weeks, when I take it for a spin...

I agree with Kevin & Jon that the photos do look conoid, and one would hardly expect a cylindrical foot on an otherwise conoid flute. I also agree about Hawkes Bohm feet being very comparable - there is much that is Hawkes-ish about these late RC&Co. flutes. I also have a Besson 8-key Eb band flute with a very similar foot (and keys!).

So, Jon, does that mean you now know for sure where it has gone?
(Having done a bit of eBay detective work, although not definitively sure yet, I'm near-as-dammit certain I pinned it right!)

[RudallRose]

hmmm
interesting. You're right about the Hawkes foot structure. I have one myself and it works quite nicely. Always thought so.

just that the catalogue hasn't revealed this as yet on a Rudall, is all I said. So this would be one of what's presumptively a small number of conoidal Rudalls with boehm-style foot keys. More specifially one with pillar key mounts.
I have a 72xx series not far-off from the one auctioned here that is block mounts and has the typical claw-foot key structure on the foot.

Darn gorgeous piece of figured cocuswood too.

Well, for what it's worth, not a bad flute historically. As I said.....a "transition" flute.

[jemtheflute]

We're wandering all over the shop theme-wise in this thread, but hey, it's a good 'un, I reckon. I checked out what I have around, and actually the RC&Co ones are a bit different from the Hawkes ones I have to hand (lousy memory, apparently!), though I suspect the Hawkes ones are earlier than the Rudalls and that later examples might be more similar. OK, so here are some rod-axle mechanism foot joints, all off conoid flutes save one, all flutes playable at A=440 except the diapason normal Couesnon.

Laid out with the socket ferrules approximately in line, L-R in the top picture they are:
RC&Co. 1867 system concert flute, Ebonite with silver, (cylinder)
Besson & Co. Eb 8-key simple system band flute, cocus with GS
RC&Co. F 8-key simple system band flute, cocus with GS
Hawkes & Son Siccama type concert flute, cocus with GS
Riviere & Hawkes 8-key simple system concert flute, cocus with silver
Couesnon & Cie. French 8-key simple system concert flute (low pitch), cocus with GS








The Riviere & Hawkes is earlier than the Hawkes & Son. No other dating info available/known to me. The Hawkes Siccama type has the touches extended further up-tube than the others because of the altered reach with the R3 Siccama key. Later Hawkes flutes (and other French ones like the Couesnon) unite the Eb key onto the main axle in the "normal" Bohm configuration. Spot the French influences! The Besson, despite the French name, is stamped "London".

[Jon C.]

I will let you guys know in a couple of weeks, when I take it for a spin...

So, Jon, does that mean you now know for sure where it has gone?
(Having done a bit of eBay detective work, although not definitively sure yet, I'm near-as-dammit certain I pinned it right!)

Yes, and it will be in my shop next week! The smoking pipes gave him away...
Should be playing in a jiffy, repair a couple cracks, slap on some new pads, and away we go!
It is interesting that they were using ice Cocuswood in the later flutes, seems like there was a lot of cracking ebony in the mid century... I guess they got the good stuff for the RC Bohm flutes? It would be interesting to get the history of the Cocus supply, and other woods, tied to the slave trade? Seems like there were batches of Madgascar ebony passed off as Cocus quite a bit... (the other brown wood)?

[jemtheflute]

I will let you guys know in a couple of weeks, when I take it for a spin...

.... it will be in my shop next week! The smoking pipes gave him away...
Should be playing in a jiffy, repair a couple cracks, slap on some new pads, and away we go!
It is interesting that they were using nice Cocuswood in the later flutes, seems like there was a lot of cracking ebony in the mid century... I guess they got the good stuff for the RC Bohm flutes? It would be interesting to get the history of the Cocus supply, and other woods, tied to the slave trade? Seems like there were batches of Madgascar ebony passed off as Cocus quite a bit... (the other brown wood)?

indeed!

So we'll be able to find out how all our measurement-based surmises and deductions about pitch/scaling relate to reality!

I agree, it would be fascinating to have a history of the cocus trade. I'm not sure how relevant the slave trade was, though - abolished in GB in 1807 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807), remember, though that's not to say British-owned ships weren't illicitly involved in the US slave trade and the classic GB-Africa-Caribbean/mainland Americas triangle at later dates. Sugar and rum imports to GB were probably more significant parallel trades, though. Certainly very high quality cocus of the red, veiny-grained/"figured" variety (rather than the duller red-brown earlier stuff - or was that acid-stained and they gave up on that later?) seems to have been plentiful enough for the London and French makers, including in unflawed pieces long enough for "unibody" Bohm flutes!

(Oooh, quick bit of surfing found this - a piccy!!: http://toptropicals.com/catalog/uid/brya_ebenus.htm. You'll have to try growing your own, Jon - you probably have a suitable climate!)

[kkrell]

Yes, and it will be in my shop next week! The smoking pipes gave him away...
Should be playing in a jiffy, repair a couple cracks, slap on some new pads, and away we go!

In the meantime, how's my anonymous 8-key coming?

I still have that William Camp boxwood F to bring in, plus a variety of small jobs (tenon re-corking, etc.).

[Neil B]

Jem I'm in the UK at the mo' a while ago I sent pics of a flute which is numbered x10 in front of this one in the thread. Can you get back direct if you know who's who as I need dim's on the head and by the looks of it you may have the bottom? Mine is not split in the middle section....viz mouthpeice, solid body then extention piece???

[jemtheflute]

Jem I'm in the UK at the mo' a while ago I sent pics of a flute which is numbered x10 in front of this one in the thread. Can you get back direct if you know who's who as I need dim's on the head and by the looks of it you may have the bottom? Mine is not split in the middle section....viz mouthpeice, solid body then extention piece???

Have e-mailed you, Neil.

[Jon C.]

Yes, and it will be in my shop next week! The smoking pipes gave him away...
Should be playing in a jiffy, repair a couple cracks, slap on some new pads, and away we go!

In the meantime, how's my anonymous 8-key coming?

I still have that William Camp boxwood F to bring in, plus a variety of small jobs (tenon re-corking, etc.).

Busted... I will get right on it...

[kkrell]

Yes, and it will be in my shop next week! The smoking pipes gave him away...
Should be playing in a jiffy, repair a couple cracks, slap on some new pads, and away we go!

In the meantime, how's my anonymous 8-key coming?

I still have that William Camp boxwood F to bring in, plus a variety of small jobs (tenon re-corking, etc.).

Busted... I will get right on it...

Just because it doesn't have a snooty Rudall name. Let me know when's good to bring the others in.