Reasons for owning/playing Low D & Low F

[cunparis]

I've noticed a lot of people play both Low D & Low F. I'm curious why? Are they really different? I would think they'd only have 1 note difference between them that it'd be hard to tell them apart if one listened to a tune. So I'm curious what are some reasons that people would own and play both?

For example while researching this I read of a few CDs that have tracks using Low D and tracks using Low F.

Coming from a saxophone background, some people like to own/play different saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, etc.) but I think most pro's focus on one (Kenny G on Soprano, David Sanborn on alto, etc.). Of course a sax can play in any key..

So does one use a F and a D in order to be able to play in different keys? If one is playing on a solo album, they could arrange the songs in any key they want. Would there be an advantage to having some songs in F and some in D (or the other keys associated with each)?

Perhaps one plays the F & D because they sound differently. Or play differently. Or just for variety?

In my own case, I recently got a Low D that is keeping me busy. I don't see any need for a Low F, however I wouldn't mind having a really nice Alto G. The reason is because the G I can play without piper's grip and I can play the fast dance tunes with it. I can play the fast tunes on my High D but I really like the lower sound of the G. So for me personally, the G seems like a good compromise between the playability of a High D and the sound of the Low D. So I'm curious how Low F fits in there for others.

Cheers

[Peter Duggan]

I've noticed a lot of people play both Low D & Low F. I'm curious why? Are they really different? I would think they'd only have 1 note difference between them that it'd be hard to tell them apart if one listened to a tune. So I'm curious what are some reasons that people would own and play both?

Quite different beasts, really... play in different keys, got different feel, response, breath requirements, projection etc.

So does one use a F and a D in order to be able to play in different keys? If one is playing on a solo album, they could arrange the songs in any key they want. Would there be an advantage to having some songs in F and some in D (or the other keys associated with each)?

Perhaps we like to play tunes in their written/given keys. Or like variety. Or both!

Perhaps one plays the F & D because they sound differently. Or play differently. Or just for variety?

All of the above.

In my own case, I recently got a Low D that is keeping me busy. I don't see any need for a Low F, however I wouldn't mind having a really nice Alto G. The reason is because the G I can play without piper's grip and I can play the fast dance tunes with it. I can play the fast tunes on my High D but I really like the lower sound of the G. So for me personally, the G seems like a good compromise between the playability of a High D and the sound of the Low D. So I'm curious how Low F fits in there for others.

For many (including myself) it hits the 'sweet spot' between depth and playability. You can play your dance tunes on the low D too, but F's just a naturally good size for a big whistle!

[voggy_dog]

In my own case, I recently got a Low D that is keeping me busy. I don't see any need for a Low F, however I wouldn't mind having a really nice Alto G. The reason is because the G I can play without piper's grip and I can play the fast dance tunes with it. I can play the fast tunes on my High D but I really like the lower sound of the G. So for me personally, the G seems like a good compromise between the playability of a High D and the sound of the Low D. So I'm curious how Low F fits in there for others.

Cheers

I just got an Alto G from Nick Metcalf (Ethnicwinds). Fingering is a lot faster than the low D, and breath requirements are not as demanding. I personally like the key of G because I come from a Bluegrass background and like to transpose common BG tunes (Blackberry Blossom, Lonesome fiddle blues, Wildwood flower, etc.) to the whistle because these are the tunes I am most familiar with, and G is a common bluegrass key. I can't think of many tunes I'd want to play in F, although maybe some of the modes may come in handy. You can use the fingertip method, but I'm kinda getting used to the pipers grip now. Either seems to work fine on the G.

[Feadoggie]

So I'm curious what are some reasons that people would own and play both?

There are probably a bunch of reasons. I attribute the popularity of the low F to its use by the folks in Lunasa. They've recorded a bunch of tunes using low F whistles. If you want to play along with those recordings or get the same vibe on your own, you will need a low F whistle. That started with the Mike McGoldrick and John McSherry, then continued as Cillian Vallely and Kevin Crawford came on board. Sean Smyth of course is the common bond to the low F across those years. How they came to the low F is something to ask them. Perhaps it came from the playing of Cormac Breathnach (anyone?). It's a nice key for a whistle. But I never met a key I didn't like. Why limit oneself.

Feadoggie

[cunparis]

They've recorded a bunch of tunes using low F whistles. If you want to play along with those recordings or get the same vibe on your own, you will need a low F whistle.

This was part of my question.. if one is simply playing along with tunes from CDs, one can use transcribe to transpose it down two half-steps and then it'd be in a D. My experience is the quality is pretty good when transposing 2 half steps. Even 4 is ok. After that it's iffy. Sometimes you end up with guitar notes that sound way too low, so that's one thing to watch out for.

SO if I wanted to play with Lunasa CD I could with Transcribe.


Really the WHOAD is getting to me and I'm already planning my next whistle. And debating between a G or F. I feel the F is similar to the D so I was leaning towards G. But I feel like maybe I'm missing something.

[Feadoggie]

SO if I wanted to play with Lunasa CD I could with Transcribe.

You could. I wouldn't.

The result would not have the same vibe and feeling as it does in F. As you said the guitar and bass get all wonky when you lower their pitch that much. They fall out of the range in which they are normally heard. Mind you I am a fan of using pitch and tempo tools as learning aids but playing along lowering the pitch four half steps is pretty extreme to me. I'll go from Eb to D maybe.

"Resistance is futile." You will end up with a low F and a low G soon enough.

As you said there is little difference in the F major scale and the D major scale as far as the notes go. F major is sort of the blue/minor key to the D major scale (he ducks!). So it has that familiar yet different feel to those of us that play tunes in D all the time. G is always there on all D whistles, familiar territory again. But the G whistle is a blast to play, lower in pitch and easier on the ears than the high D and more nimble than the low D. You just have to decide when to buy one of each key.

Start with the low F. Here's another example of the low F vibe. Don't worry Cooney doesn't play didgeridoo on this one, just bass.

Feadoggie

[cunparis]

You just have to decide when to buy one of each key.

That makes a lot of sense. Not "if" but "when". I think I"ll set a time limit on this so that I have to space it out.

[whistle1000]

I totally agree with what Feadoggie said in his last two posts. Probably started with Cormac. Gotta love him! More recently popularized by Lunasa. I have a Grinter low F and it is my absolute favorite! I rarely ever play my low G. Pretty well can do the same with my low D.

Get both but I'd start with the low F. You could play along with said players on their recordings. Also you'd now have 2 F whistles and you could teach your daughter. Exactly what I do with my 6 yr. Old son. He has a high F as well. Although you could certainly get her a high G as well.

There's just something about that F key. I read somewhere here about Bflat being the tone of the " universal vibration " . Dude, you'd be in harmony with the universe! Lol. I'll save that mumbo jumbo for my Ai (harmony) Ki (energy) Do(the way).

Seriously though, you'll love the low F.

[cunparis]

Very informative guys. These whistles are fun to collect. I have two highD, Gen Bb, Guido G, and MK Low D. I play almost every one every day. If I want to play a quick tune I just grab a Bb or G. If I have more time I go for Low D. If I play with the tunebook CDs I play with high or low D. It seems they really all do have a purpose. Until the MK Low D though, they were all inexpensive. The MK Low D really raises the bar and it's about to jump from a cheap hobby to an expensive one!

Anyone set time frames to try to space it out? Like "No new whistle until I master the one I just got?" or something like that? I hate to waste things, especially money. I've been playing for 9 months now and hope to be playing 9 months from now.

Ok so I better understand the reasons for getting an F. I'm still leaning towards the G because I'd like a whistle I can play without piper's grip for really fast tunes. And then maybe an F later on.

[Feadoggie]

Probably started with Cormac. Gotta love him! More recently popularized by Lunasa.

I just made a connection thanks to BigDavy on how low F may have been popularized.
In another thread BigDavy linked to a clip of Steve Cooney playing with Seamus Begley. Cooney also played with Cormac Breathnach while he was the undisputed master of the low F. Cooney then played with Sharon Shannon crossing paths with Donagh Hennessey and Trever Hutchinson while they were in the group. And we know where they went next - Lunasa. Who knows?

Feadoggie

[MTGuru]

You may be onto something with your genealogy, Feadoggie. Trends definitely spread from player to player. But I also think F whistle wouldn't have propagated if there weren't something inherently attractive about it. And Peter and whistle1000 have sounded the right note. F whistle hits a "sweet spot" in terms of pitch, timbre, size, comfort, and distinctiveness. You either "get it' or you don't. And I know any number of good players who react exactly the same, including myself. F whistle brings a smile to the face.

By contrast, G whistle is relatively rare in recordings. D, F and A whistles are the popular low whistle choices, in that order.

As for piper's grip - which is fast becoming a hobby horse of mine - there's no difference in agility. It's a slight change of hand position, and no big deal. Just do it.

[Peter Duggan]

transpose it down two half-steps and then it'd be in a D.

Afraid two semitones below F will give you Eb!

And debating between a G or F. I feel the F is similar to the D so I was leaning towards G. But I feel like maybe I'm missing something.

Nothing wrong with the G, and perhaps it offers more in the way of typically 'trad' keys. But I'd suggest you also take a look at what the likes of Fraser Fifield's done with Fs (we're on a whistle forum here, not just an Irish trad forum, right?) to see that 'sweet spot' being exploited in ways which probably just wouldn't work with other sizes (or indeed other players!).

[Peter Duggan]

take a look at what the likes of Fraser Fifield's done with Fs

Not saying he doesn't play anything else (!), but this is the kind of thing I mean...
http://www.kerrywhistles.com/movies/FraserFifiled07.wmv
http://www.kerrywhistles.com/movies/Fra ... eld07b.wmv

[cunparis]

Afraid two semitones below F will give you Eb!

Yes I forgot about that Eb in there.

.. that 'sweet spot' being exploited in ways which probably just wouldn't work with other sizes (or indeed other players!).

This is really interesting. What is he doing that couldn't be done with a Low D or Alto G?

I think it all comes down to personal preference and one player may feel at home with a Low F while another prefers the Low D. Neither is better than the other, it's just a personal preference.

This is in mind, one potential answer to my original question would be that if one is happy with their whistle, there might not be a reason to try another. However if one doesn't think it's a good match they could try another key. And keep trying, even changing brands if necessary, until they find their dream whistle.

For a professional this makes a lot of sense as the cost investment is justified. For an amateur it can lead to obtaining a several whistles. For example in my case i started with a Low D. Maybe I try Low F and Alto G and maybe in another in a different brand (still curious to try a Colin Goldie) and then decide in the end after 1,000 euros that I prefer my first Low D in the first place?

There is something similar with DSLR lenses. When I got my DSLR I had to try out every lens there was. Even though in many cases there weren't major differences between them. In the end I ebay'd most of them and now I use 2 lenses 99% of the time. Took me a while to find out which 2 I liked best.

[Peter Duggan]

This is really interesting. What is he doing that couldn't be done with a Low D or Alto G?

It's hard to explain, but mostly to do with the response (Ds being that little bit less nimble/more awkward to handle), and maybe also relative bore sizes when Gs typically seem to be made from the same size tubing as Fs (so relatively fatter) and I've yet to see a G done that way that's got the same top end response as a good F. Not saying it's impossible (and he does play other sizes and instruments), but just that what he's doing there seems tailor-made for the F.