Pipers Grip

[LorenzoFlute]

A very talented player can probably play upside-down with both hands twisted in some weird way, but it doesn't mean that this is the way that gives the better results...

[bradhurley]

Actually the piper Tommy Keane can play the tin whistle quite adeptly upside-down, with one hand; I'll have to ask him if he can do it on the flute as well (Tommy is an amazingly good flute player, one of my favorites, although he doesn't actually own a flute)

[JackCampin]

Are you using the second joints on your fingers to cover the holes?

Yup, same as a Highland piper.

Flat fingering works best with soprano and alto recorders - the larger and smaller sizes tend to push me more into using fingertips. Alto recorders have the holes in almost the same places as on a Highland pipe chanter so the same tricks work. Having a little finger significantly different from average might get in the way, since the pinkie hole is the only one that's placed differently.

Something else you usually flat-finger with the lower hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKZ6BpTJFU

I wouldn't try fingertip stopping on that.

[MikeS]

Actually the piper Tommy Keane can play the tin whistle quite adeptly upside-down, with one hand; I'll have to ask him if he can do it on the flute as well (Tommy is an amazingly good flute player, one of my favorites, although he doesn't actually own a flute)

Yeah, but can he do this? (Check it out at around the 4:40 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FGpUIs3 ... re=related

As contentious as brass players can sometimes be, there is surprisingly little controversy about straight vs. curved fingers on valved brass instruments. If it works for you and doesn't produce unnecessary tension in your hand, it's all good.

[pipersgrip]

Don't worry, there's noting wrong with pipers grip. I have found it more useful than normal grip. But that might be because I am double jointed in my hands, and my fingers lock up when they bend in normal grip.

[bradhurley]

Deirdre Havlin too -- piper's grip and left-handed to boot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93ELpmwh ... er&list=UL

[JohnB]

Thanks Brad - that's a rare clip of Dee playing, she's great - I did one of her workshops a few years ago she's a good teacher as well as a great player.

[Ballygo]

Lovely playing. But the grip looks more live Rob`s "Irish Grip". The pipers grip has straight fingers. Her fingers on the upper right hand look curved.

Ballygo.

[bradhurley]

Lovely playing. But the grip looks more live Rob`s "Irish Grip". The pipers grip has straight fingers. Her fingers on the upper right hand look curved.

Yes, clearly visible here:



I guess I don't draw the distinction, I just lump anything approaching flat-fingered into the "piper's grip" category.

Credit for finding that youtube clip goes to Steampacket, not me -- he posted it in the other thread on favorite flute players and I noticed while watching it that she wasn't using the standard flute hold.

[Ballygo]

I have no idea how she is doing that, but it obviously works very well.

Ballygo

[Denny]

I wonder how long she will be able to do that.

[jemtheflute]

It's a super clip and she plays the music wonderfully. As for how she's doing it, the visibly tense shoulder propping is clearly essential to what she is doing and she also seems to be applying some inward pressure with the side of the 2nd knuckle of the top hand fore-finger most of the time as well as some up/in with the top thumb. Her bottom hand is pretty orthodox, though her finger movements are rather extravagantly flappy. N.B. I'm not criticising her playing, just making physical observations.

[bradhurley]

And yet another (from the same series hosted by Mairead): the flute player and composer Francis O'Connor, who also plays left-handed and using what I suppose is this "Irish hold." He seems to have no trouble reaching the keys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7eh_D3 ... u_in_order

Despite the title, that's Tim Kelly on the guitar, not Jimmy Crowley!

[jemtheflute]

O'Connor's hold, like Hanley's, for sure is more in line with what I understand Rob's "Irish grip" to be - no shoulder prop and nice and secure without it. Note the top forefinger is somewhat across the hole and slightly curled around the flute - which seems to be common with this thumb-pressed-in method, although the 2nd & 3rd fingers are not. Of course, he's playing a normal R-handed flute L handed and utilising the keys a la Cathal McConnell.

I wouldn't include Devlin's or Wynne's hold under either Pipers' or Rob's "Irish" regardless of the actual hand posture/finger contact because they are heavily dependent on the shoulder prop (which can also be [mis-]applied, often by beginners, to a classical style hand hold) - you can actually see in the hunch of their shoulders and the rotated angles of their heads how hard they are pushing the flute against the shoulder with their head (or resisting the shoulder push with their neck) and how that reduces the need for the top hand to push back. FWIW, although McGoldrick is also a shoulder-propper, he seems to be much less extremely rotated and not to press as much - and I have seen him occasionally lift from it, so I don't think he'd drop the flute without being on the shoulder, it's more an extra security thing (I think Conal O'Grada tends towards this from the other side - mostly just about off the shoulder but sometimes dipping on), whereas Wynne and Havlin and their kind probably can't support the flute/play at all off the shoulder.

[bradhurley]

whereas Wynne and Havlin and their kind probably can't support the flute/play at all off the shoulder.

I wouldn't bet on it. When I played with my top fingers straight across, I never played with the flute on my shoulder and never had trouble supporting the flute. There were counteracting forces at work: speaking as a right-handed player, my right pinky was pushing down and away from me, and my right thumb was also pushing away from me, which like a see-saw pushed the head joint into my chin. This was aided further by my left thumb, which pushed the top of the flute into my chin as well. I could easily play a C# (all fingers off) and provide rock-solid support for the flute with the counterbalanced pressures of my left thumb and my right pinky, providing three points of support: chin, thumb, and pinky. Instead of being anchored by my shoulder, the flute was anchord by my chin. I just tried it on my flute, attempting the various postures we've seen in these youtube clips, and in no case do I feel like I need to use my shoulder as a support. It would be a different story of course if I kept my right pinky off the flute.

Deirdre leaves her bottom hand pinky off the flute quite a bit, which would make it far less stable, but you can see her putting it on the flute for support on certain notes. Same story for John Wynne.