absolutely HATE selling on ebay!

[RudallRose]

What a ripoff. And there are so other few venues where you can sell a decent flute.
But the gouging that goes on by eBay and its PayPal affiliates.
Just disgusting.

And what's worse....they hold your money even after you've sent the item. And YOU have to wait days before it's released. Just simple crapola.

You can't sell an item with a buyItnow price without being required to use PayPal.

what's worse.....PayPal charges ME....the seller.....for the buyer to pay this way...when the convenience is to the freakin' buyer!!

We really need to put a moratorium on the stupid-butt charges they take.

It's freakin' incredible.

there. I've ranted. I don't feel any better....but screw 'em.

[Aanvil]

Yeah, I can only imagine the cash they make. I wish I had thought of it.

I believe Paypal is owned by eBay.

[Doug_Tipple]

Of course, ebay and paypal are one and the same. However, in defense of ebay and its charges, you can list an item for an auction-style listing for no charge unless the item is sold, in which case you are charged 11% (final evaluation fee) of the selling price plus the shipping expenses. Paypal charges the seller 3% of the total for domestic payments and 4% for international. Thus, ebay/paypal charges about 15% to sell a flute. The smart thing to do is to build these charges into your auction price, that is, a higher reserve price.

However, by contrast, I have sold my flutes wholesale at a 40% discount to a retail music store. I don't do that anymore. I also have sold expensive string instruments on consignment in a music store, where the store received 20-30% of the sale. So, with this in mind ebay isn't looking too bad, in my opinion.

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

I sell the flute I make on ebay a lot. The trick is to list the item for free and host your images elsewhere so you do not have to pay for those. Incorporate your costs into the price of the flute as Doug said, and if you wanted to avoid paypal you simply could put that you only accept money orders, I know there is a way to do that. Yes they gouge like crazy, but it's really one of the few marketplaces where you can get the necessary traffic needed to promote and sell stuff.

[fearfaoin]

when the convenience is to the freakin' buyer!!

You may not say that if you'd ever sold to
a Nigerian scammer who tried to pay by faux
money order. Most of what you are ranting
about came into being to avoid that sort
problem.

[RudallRose]

the Nigerian scammer would be the complete opposite if he's the buyer.

i send him him $3k+ flute and no money, or a complaint or whatever.....

it should be, hold the money in escrow for a day....ONE day.....the item is delivered and that's that.

just retarded. really really bad.

and, no, there is not a way to sell the instrument w/o PayPal.....unless you have it as a true auction.
....no offense doug.....these are Rudalls....not the lower-tiered pricing of flutes. You don't put them into the auction w/o a reserve price these days. if you do (and I speak of the higher-priced flutes, mind you) you will lose $. Plain and simple.
If you have $3k into a flute....you'd like that back....or most of it. Are you willing to take the gamble -- while giving $ to eBay on top of it -- that you'd get your $ back?

But the stupid price gouging.....and it's more than 15%......

eBay started off as a very nice way for sellers and buyers to find each other.
it's little more now that a way for eBay to make a TON of money for doing pretty much nothing.

What boils me is the REQUIREMENT to use PayPal....and then CHARGE ME for that priviledge.

[tsackett]

What were your actual ebay fees and paypal fees for that flute you just sold for $3K?

[Doug_Tipple]

David, I think that you misunderstood my reference to a reserve price. It goes without saying that for an expensive item you need to have a reserve price when selling on ebay. It would be foolish to list without one unless your starting bid was at what you considered your lowest acceptable price, in which case you wouldn't need a reserve price. However, as I and others have said, the reserve price ought to be high enough to cover what you want to get for the flute plus your ebay/paypal fees, which you can calculate before hand. This seems to be a win/win for the seller, because if the auction closes with a bid, you are at your acceptable selling price. If the auction closes without a bid, you didn't lose a penny to advertise the flute.

By ebay requiring that the payment be made by paypal allows them to control all aspects of the transaction, which is essential since they are guaranteeing the transaction for both the buyer and the seller. Yes, they do make a profit on the payment, but I consider it a reasonable fee considering the other payment options. As a seller, at least you know that you are going to receive your money, and usually you receive it instantly.

[kkrell]

David's doing it wrong. Total fees on a high-priced $3k flute eBay auction should be just slightly over 6%. There's a $100 cap on the eBay fee in the auction category (fixed price is indeed much higher), and PayPal domestic fees are roughly $90 ($120 international), plus 9% of the domestic shipping charge. Smart sellers don't use reserves, but have a starting price they'll accept. 1st 50 auction listings each month are free to list, unless you use extras like not hosting your own photos, subtitle, special start & end times. Note that with low-priced auctions, the fees then become a larger percentage of the sale, so low-cost item auctions do reach 15%-20%. Here's an example of a fee calculator that you can use to set your pricing:

http://www.rolbe.com/ebay.htm

[Casey Burns]

I've never had trouble selling on eBay, or using PayPal and the fees seem fine - just part of the cost of doing business. When someone has paid, there has been no delay in the money showing up in my PayPal account and having instant access to it, unless they pay me by eCheck, in which case a 2 to 7 day hold applies. That's a problem with the banking system, not PayPal. I've run into this at local BofA branches and other banks where I have had accounts in the past - if I deposit a check over $3000, they sometimes will put up to a 10 day hold on it. This is an artifact from the days before everything being done electronically and back then, it probably did take 10 days for the money to clear. Now they simply put on that 10 day hold, clear it that night, and then borrow my and other peoples' deposits interest free to gamble on hedge funds or Wall Street or pay off some 3rd world dictator or do whatever they do with it. The good thing about PayPal I have found is that I usually have access to the money instantly - so more and more of my transactions are run through it. Its worth the 3% they charge (and that fee I simply deduct when doing my taxes).

Casey

[RudallRose]

i must be banging my head on the wall here.

of course you build the price of the fees into your reserve. That's eBay's explanation for ripping us off.
Same with the auction houses, how ADD on the premium on top of the bid price, not just a buyer's premium, but the percentage cut they take from the seller, too.

Just disgusting.

My issue here is the fee I am charged for being required to use PayPal.
I dont' care if I have to use it....but let the BUYER have to pay that cost.
That cost is not factored into your sale since it's a percentage of the payment itself......which is already double dipped.

I sold the flute for $3,000 bid price.
Postage with insurance overseas was to be $3,150 total.
eBay fees = $136 (part of it in insertion fees; part in percentage cut; part in reserve price, etc)
PayPal fees on the $3,150 = $122.
Total bill: $258 for a "sale" of $3,000 (remember, the $150 is a push through of shipping costs)
My final in-hand: $2,715.

So......give me a clue.

Why do I have to pay $122 for the paypal transfer of money they have not only "taxed" me once on the sale, but now tax the very same amount again for the PayPal transfer that i am required to offer! The purchaser, who is provided the convenience of paying via PayPal, should have to pay the fee above and beyond the payment of the item and the postage!

Double dipping.

[MTGuru]

what's worse.....PayPal charges ME....the seller.....for the buyer to pay this way...when the convenience is to the freakin' buyer!!

Neither defending nor blaming PayPal or eBay ... But it's is no different from brick and mortar, no? When you pay by Visa card at your local widget store, its the widget vendor who quietly eats the Visa processing fee, not the customer. Try charging that fee back to the customers at the register, and see what kind of riots break out. (A store I once worked at did exactly that with Amex fees, with often, er, interesting consequences.) PayPal is just acting as a clearance/transaction agent. And fair or not, the conventional expectation by both buyers and sellers is that the seller absorb the cost of purchasing convenience.

[RudallRose]

the difference here is that the store has the right not to accept VISA or any card.

Also....several stores have offered premium pricing for paying cash.....and hence raise their regular prices for those who pay credit. (that's changing slightly as the interchange fees are now dropping by a lot following Congressional action).

So while your point isn't lost....it's not precisely on point since merchants have many options.

eBay does not allow you to offer something at a buy it now price without the PayPal option, which everyone.....and I can't recall a sale where it didn't happen....uses.

I tried once to say that I would not eat the PayPal fees and the buyer must pay them and eBy delisted the item.

[MTGuru]

the difference here is that the store has the right not to accept VISA or any card.

True, though practically speaking, that's probably a good strategy for high street retail suicide, at least in the US.

It's THE MAN, David. Keeping us down. Your ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. You have nothing to lose but your chains - or at least your eBay links.

[tsackett]

I can't find anything that says you are required to accept PayPal. You have to provide at least one electronic payment method, but this can include PayPal, ProPay, MoneyBookers, PayMate, or a merchant credit card option.

You say that "buy it now" requires PayPal, but I'm not sure that's true, unless you're also specifying immediate payment.

If I'm right, it means that eBay isn't really "double-dipping"; they've just separated the PayPal transaction fees so that you have other options for handling the transaction.

Where did you sell things before eBay? What were your advertising, transaction, and other expenses? Did your items fetch prices as high as what you now get on eBay? There are now more ways to connect with buyers than have existed before. It doesn't make sense to use eBay if they are truly gouging.