Bb vs A whistles

[retired]

I see that some whistle makers offer Bb whistles but not key of A. So I'm wondering if this is because the Generation Bb is so popular or are there other reasons. I would think that the key of A should also be popular as you can play in the key of D besides having a nice alto sound in the key of A. --- Enlighten me.

[walrii]

I don't know why except maybe Bb and Eb are more in demand than A. Non-ITM music has considerable music in Bb and Eb and many band instruments are in those keys - someone will enlighten us shortly. However, there are A whistles out there. Dixon and Susato both make nice A whistles. My favorite is Jerry Freeman's A - he makes his own A tube and puts it on a tweaked Generation Bb head. As you point out, A whistles are a pleasant key and easy to play since they don't require a piper's grip for most folks.

[JTC111]

I see that some whistle makers offer Bb whistles but not key of A. So I'm wondering if this is because the Generation Bb is so popular or are there other reasons. I would think that the key of A should also be popular as you can play in the key of D besides having a nice alto sound in the key of A. --- Enlighten me.

I'm guessing but I'd think it has to do with having to step up to a bigger tube diameter to make an A whistle. Quite a few makers offer C/Bb sets and some even offer D/C/Bb sets. I'm not sure you could use a tube of the same diameter and make a good A whistle (I know Jerry Freeman offers one now but I don't know of any others). So for those who stick to making high whistles, Bb is the cut-off point. And as has been discussed on this board in the past, A is considered by many to be the highest key in the group we refer to as "low whistles." But like I said, I'm guessing at this explanation.

That said, I know of no maker who makes a Bb and a low G and skips over the key of A. That means no one is deliberately omitting A whistles from their lineup if they're offering both high and low whistles.

As for the Gen Bb being popular, I'm not sure how you're assessing that. Gens are dirt cheap so they're going to outsell better quality whistles primarily for that reason. Honda Civics are more "popular" than BMW 650i convertibles, but if you're giving people a choice and taking the cost out of it, not too many are going to pick the Civic. I've owned two Gens in my life, both were crap, but I'm a crap whistler so that contributes much to my assessment (the first Gen I owned I bought about 20 years ago and it was so frustrating to learn on that I tossed it and didn't revisit the whistle until two years ago). However, on better whistles I sound much better. I think Gen fans fall mainly into two categories: first, there are some really talented whistlers out there that can make a Gen sound really good; second, there are plenty of people, perhaps mainly beginners, who haven't had the opportunity to spend some time with better whistles.

I fully expect to get an earful from the Gen fans now.

[hans]

Bb and A make a good combo set. Since they are only a semi tone apart, the tonal difference between these two made with the same bore is very small. Using 3/4" OD aluminium tubing (5/8" bore) this can make a powerful whistle set.

In contrast a C and Bb combo set using tubing with 14mm bore (a bit less than 9/16") will result in a perceptible tonal difference: I class the Bb as narrow and the C as standard bore in this case. The resulting Bb whistle is a much sweeter player compared to the wider 5/8" bore, but with less power, with a softer low end and improved second octave upper end.

I made an A body as well with this tubing. The head needed a modified wider windway, in order to produce more power for this very narrow bore. The low end got even weaker, and I would not recommend such a whistle for Irish music. But I made it so I can learn to play along Hungarian Csango dance music, in which a narrow bore A whistle is used a lot, and played principally in the second and third octave. For that the very narrow bore worked out well, with a very easy upper end, very controllable third register, and a rich harmonics content in the tone.

[janmarie]

I was just going to mention Hans Bracker makes a Bb/A combo that I have but I see you're an earlier riser than me Hans! Very nice whistles! I enjoy them very much.

[pancelticpiper]

I could be wrong (I often am) but as I recall Generations were first made in the alto/soprano pairs of Bb/Eb and C/F, and that the D came along later and is merely a stretched Eb. What supports that theory is that Eb and D are the only two Generations to share tubing and head: the Bb, C, Eb, and F were engineered from scratch. I don't think ITM, as we know it today, was what the original makers of Generations had in mind.

But anyhow I really like Generations and I made a Generation A, by making a new body for a Bb head. It plays great.

About narrow-bore A whistles, I used to have a Susato Low A made with the same diameter tubing as their normal D whistles. I don't think they've made those in a long time. It played great, right in tune, but of course was rather quiet.

[brewerpaul]

Are highland bagpipes tuned in Bb? Maybe Bb whistles became popular to be compatible with them (although they'd be awfully hard to hear amongst the pipes).
I agree that A is a terrific key. I use my Overton A in our band frequently to play D tunes. It puts the tune in the middle of the whistle's range instead at the bottom end which is often very useful.

[AbrasiveScotsman]

I didn't own either, and I went with a Bb - 2 in fact. The reason is duplication.

The Bb whistle will play in Bb major, Eb major and F major as well as C minor, D minor and G minor.

The A whistle plays in A major, D major, E major, B minor, C# minor and F# minor.

If you already own a D major whistle you get more new keys in your repertoire with a Bb whistle.

[JTC111]

Bb and A make a good combo set. Since they are only a semi tone apart, the tonal difference between these two made with the same bore is very small. Using 3/4" OD aluminium tubing (5/8" bore) this can make a powerful whistle set.

In contrast a C and Bb combo set using tubing with 14mm bore (a bit less than 9/16") will result in a perceptible tonal difference

I'm not arguing the science, but if this is true, why do so many makers offer the C/Bb combo but not the Bb/A combo?

[Feadoggie]

I'm not arguing the science, but if this is true, why do so many makers offer the C/Bb combo but not the Bb/A combo?

I think you may have to do an exhaustive survey to back up your conjecture, Jim. Just sayin' ... not arguin'.

Lots of makers have offered a combo of A and Bb (Pat O'Riordan or Glenn Schultz for example). And a few that offered C/Bb combos have revised their offerings so that the Bb now uses the same bore as their low A (Susato for one). I make my A and Bb from the same tube (not that that would carry any weight) with a 5/8" bore for the reasons Hans has given, that half step difference. And anyone who has cobbled an A whistle from a Gen Bb will tell you that they are in the same ballpark physically. And then there are those makers that do not offer combos because they use a different tube or bore for each key (Burke, Copeland).

It's really convenient for a maker to use one piece of tube stock for a variety of keys. They don't have to stock multiple tubes for each key so it cuts down on inventory costs, and fixtures for each size. You can run the "numbers" to design a whistle in most any key for a given tube size. But if the maker pays attention to all of the numbers they will see the limits of a given bore and key combination and the stength of others.

Selling a set of multiple bodies with one head can be a money maker. Physics isn't the only thing that motivates some builders. But as has been discussed here many times, one whistle in such sets usually is the top performer and other keys suffer. I won't give examples on this case.

Such sets are a boon to new players. They get key coverage for a minimum outlay of cash. So it's not all bad, really. But at some point they may realize the differences in each whistle (depending on how often they play each key) and move on to something else. I can be a matter of degrees in perception and expectations for many players.

Feadoggie

[highland-piper]

Are highland bagpipes tuned in Bb? Maybe Bb whistles became popular to be compatible with them (although they'd be awfully hard to hear amongst the pipes).

Modern highland pipes are a bit sharp of Bb, but in days gone by they were generally Bb.

I've never heard of anyone playing whistle with pipes in an ensemble, so that's probably not it. A piper would not be able to hear the whistler at all without a stage monitor.

Seems more likely that they produced flat keys for playing with brass.

[hans]

Selling a set of multiple bodies with one head can be a money maker. Physics isn't the only thing that motivates some builders. But as has been discussed here many times, one whistle in such sets usually is the top performer and other keys suffer. I won't give examples on this case.

Perhaps. I don't know who you are thinking of. I certainly have not experienced any money spinning in whistle making. Hand-crafting whistles does not lend itself to that, like all craft work. It can be an economy of labour for the maker though, as most work goes into making the head (at least in my case). And of course it is an economical advantage for the buyer. I would not say that one key in a combo set is the top performer and other keys suffer. Instead a compromise needs to be created. And a wider or a narrower bore in a set just gives some different characteristics, which is not necessarily bad at all. Like in a D-C-Bb combo set the C can be tonally optimal and very well balanced, the D will be a wider bore, more powerful player with powerful bottom end and a top end which needs more push, and the Bb a narrower bore, slightly quieter on the bottom end and easier on the top end.

[tomcat]

i cant respond to the why question, but i can tell you i absolutely love my A whistle by Mack Hoover. I've even had him make a "blues" body for it because it has such depth of expression. both the original A and now the A with the blues body are so much fun. i've found the key itself to be just the right voice.

[ecohawk]

John Sindt also makes an A tube to fit his Bb head. As you might expect it is a great instrument since his Bb uses a larger tube than does his D or C.

ecohawk

[pancelticpiper]

The Highland pipes today, at least with the chanters and reeds used by top pipe bands, are pitched more or less halfway between Bb and B.

Top bands are typically around A=455 (their "low A" at around 483 cycles). Concert Bb is 466 cycles.

About makers using the same tubing for different pitches, I used to have a Reviol Low C/Low D/Low Eb set and all three played great. What I found interesting is that the Eb played exactly as Eb's usually do, the C as C's usually do, the typical tone and so forth, even though they all used the same size tubing. The tone of each was remarkably different.