Possible a dumb question but.......

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Lars Larry Mór Mott
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by Lars Larry Mór Mott »

Without being patronising or condescendant i don't understand how 12-year old girls can play the 'D' "concert flute" keyed or unkeyed makes no bigger difference since the distance between the open holes as well as their size is the same (at least on the ones i have seen)
Wife must have Guinness book of records-material hands :)
Quite honestly if i wasn't able to play a "usable" key instrument i'd rather, though reluctantly choose another as i don't see choosing higher pitched, smaller flutes an option.
That said, the smallest holed D-flute i have come across recently is the Dixon tapered body "proper" flute. It didn't sound half bad either!
If she can't manage that, i'm out of ideas short of playing something else.
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by Steve Hatfield »

Mr. Blackwood I think there are two issues at hand. One: My wife has trouble covering the holes with her small hands (notice I said she does, not everyone including 12 year olds). And Two: I don't think she's really interested in pursuing the traditional Irish simple system keyless flute at all costs. It was something she wanted to try as I play the whistles a little. And as far as the keyed flutes goes, you can actually miss hit the key and the pad will still cover the entire hole so there is something to be said for that as opposed to covering the whole hole on a keyless. Unless I'm mistaken. I do appreciate everyone's input though.
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Lars Larry Mór Mott
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by Lars Larry Mór Mott »

Steve Hatfield wrote:Mr. Blackwood I think there are two issues at hand. One: My wife has trouble covering the holes with her small hands (notice I said she does, not everyone including 12 year olds). And Two: I don't think she's really interested in pursuing the traditional Irish simple system keyless flute at all costs. It was something she wanted to try as I play the whistles a little. And as far as the keyed flutes goes, you can actually miss hit the key and the pad will still cover the entire hole so there is something to be said for that as opposed to covering the whole hole on a keyless. Unless I'm mistaken. I do appreciate everyone's input though.
I'm glad you didn't take it the wrong way. I guess i approached the question too much from my own P.O.V.
Good luck with choice of instrument regardless what it turns out to be!
(btw i think everyone have problems covering/finding the holes at first, be it a uilleann chanter, low whistle or concert flute, if it's not the size, it's the placement :) )
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jim stone
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by jim stone »

Steve Hatfield wrote:
Mr. Blackwood I think there are two issues at hand. One: My wife has trouble covering the holes with her small hands (notice I said she does, not everyone including 12 year olds). And Two: I don't think she's really interested in pursuing the traditional Irish simple system keyless flute at all costs.
Once again, there is no practical problem. There are good small-handed flutes made that your wife should be able to play
easily, very small holes placed closely together. I've played them. They work. Probably easier to finger than
a keyed flute and also a good deal better for Irish tunes, especially for beginners.

http://www.caseyburnsflutes.com/faq.php (check ergonomics)

Casey is a lovely and helpful fellow with who will create a flute that works for your wife. If it doesn't she can return it.
But it will work. You can talk to him on the phone.

We've done what we can to help with the practical part of this problem. Good luck!
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by plunk111 »

Having seen Joanie Madden in concert last night and in sessions, I think I can say that an Irish sound can, indeed, come from a silver flute! If she must have keys, there's really nothing wrong with getting her something she can play and enjoy.

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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by skyspirit »

Mr_Blackwood wrote:
Steve Hatfield wrote:Mr. Blackwood I think there are two issues at hand. One: My wife has trouble covering the holes with her small hands (notice I said she does, not everyone including 12 year olds). And Two: I don't think she's really interested in pursuing the traditional Irish simple system keyless flute at all costs. It was something she wanted to try as I play the whistles a little. And as far as the keyed flutes goes, you can actually miss hit the key and the pad will still cover the entire hole so there is something to be said for that as opposed to covering the whole hole on a keyless. Unless I'm mistaken. I do appreciate everyone's input though.
I'm glad you didn't take it the wrong way. I guess i approached the question too much from my own P.O.V.
Good luck with choice of instrument regardless what it turns out to be!
(btw i think everyone have problems covering/finding the holes at first, be it a uilleann chanter, low whistle or concert flute, if it's not the size, it's the placement :) )

I found that it is the placement is the issue for me. When I tried different flutes, it came down to how comfortable it was. And that was determined by the hole placement. Just my experiece.
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by jim stone »

Pat,
If you have an excellent flute (like Joanie's) and really know what you are doing, you can get an Irish sound from
a silver flute,
no question. If you are a noobie, it is a difficult way to start ITM, especially when much less expensive,
more easily fingered wooden trad sounding alternatives are readily available. Again, there
is no real practical problem in the first place.
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by david_h »

Since you haven't been allowed to escape yet Steve...

I thought somewhere on the site there was a flute hole spacing/size comparison thread (? started by "Julia"). I can't find it, but there are some comparisons here : http://sites.google.com/site/dougsflute ... comparison and info on the small-handed Burns partway down here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52634. It looks like the Dixon is betwen the standard and small-handed Burns in spacing. While you still have the for-sale flute you could do some measurements to compare.
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by jemtheflute »

kenny wrote:I have a wooden flute by "Buffet, Crampon & Co." of Paris which is "simple system", but also has 6 individual keys over the 6 finger holes. A friend found it in a dustbin [ !!!! ] and gave it to me around 1973. I haven't come across any other flute like it, so I think it's quite rare, but they do exist.
That kind of thing isn't particularly rare, Kenny. (I hope the OP will excuse this digression!) In fact "hybrid" flutes using Bohm style rod-axle mechanisms to mount "improved" and often augmented but still essentially simple system keys, including providing platter-keys for all the "normally" open tone-holes were very common in Britain in the later C19th and a good many survive. I've seen quite a few one way and another. Some were from high-end makers, but many were cheap, including German imports. A good many of the later versions of Siccama's and Pratten's "systems" would fall into this category. Of course, whether on conoid or cylinder bodies, the majority were, being from that era, built for High Pitch.

See also Rick Wilson's relevant pages: http://www.oldflutes.com/hybrid.htm & http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/oldsys.htm

There's a Potter Bb treble band flute of that general type on eBay currently, and Phil('s Historical instrument) has another similar piccolo as well as a RC&Co concert flute of the same breed (and ridiculously overpriced for what it is and its condition!). They don't tend to be worth very much - at any rate, not the HP concert flutes.
Last edited by jemtheflute on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by LorenzoFlute »

kenny wrote:I have a wooden flute by "Buffet, Crampon & Co." of Paris which is "simple system", but also has 6 individual keys over the 6 finger holes. A friend found it in a dustbin [ !!!! ] and gave it to me around 1973. I haven't come across any other flute like it, so I think it's quite rare, but they do exist.
Check out James_Alto's descovery on this other thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83436&p=1033271#p1033271
Antique 6 key French flute for sale: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102436

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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by Feadoggie »

plunk111 wrote:Having seen Joanie Madden in concert last night and in sessions...
How's Augusta this year Pat?

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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by James_Alto »

What else was in that dustbin! :lol:
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by MTGuru »

Veering back to Steve's original topic ...

Steve, while not discounting the possibility that your wife's hands are extraordinarily small, my impression is that the crux of the matter is not so much the size of the holes or spacing or keys or a different flute, but a lack of patience (and perhaps motivation) with the sometimes difficult work involved for a beginner to adapt to the physical demands of the instrument. No one said it was supposed to be easy. It takes time to learn to feel the holes under the fingers, to gradually stretch the hands and improve flexibility, to get comfortable with piper's grip. This can be a matter of months or a year, not the mere 3 weeks between the time you bought the Sweet cherrywood flute and then put it up for sale. Your wife's resistance to learning high whistle as a step toward the flute is also telling. It has all the classic signs of expecting instant gratification, and just giving up.

Of course, there's no shame in simply not wanting to learn badly enough to do the work. Incredibly, I actually know some wonderful people who have no desire to play the flute! :-) But I think it pays to be honest with oneself, especially if she may want to try other instruments to discover the one that's right for her, only to find that each one comes with its own set of challenges requiring patience and motivation. The right attitude is always the first, most important skill.

My (admittedly limited) experience with the problem is that hand size is usually not the main issue. The largest hole is only around 12 mm, and can usually be covered with piper's grip by even small hands, unless your fingers are downright skeletal. With the correct pressure and angle, and sometimes hand-care products for suppleness, the fingers will flatten out over time.

Hole spacing can be more of a hard limit. But piper's grip is extraordinarily effective in extending one's reach - to the point that even youngsters are able to play standard sized instruments, and even adults can handle large bansuris, oversized bass whistles, etc. And again, piper's grip may take weeks or months to master. An F whistle (since you mentioned it) should be manageable by any normal adult hand, so that's a good test, and failure there is almost certainly the fault of the player's lack of trying.

It also definitely takes time for the brain to adjust to the feel of open holes under the fingers, and for some brains more time than others; everyone can be different. So willingness and motivation to learn a smaller whistle can be a stepping-stone, with it's own joys. There's nothing wrong with covered-hole flutes on their own terms. But they're not a substitute for open-hole instruments for exploiting the full range of traditional playing.

Finally, and probably needless to say, some hands-on assistance from an experienced simple-system flute player, teacher, or mentor can go a long way, and give your wife the tools she needs to overcome the initial difficulties, whether mental or physical.

All just my perspective, of course. In any case, good luck to both of you!
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by Steve Hatfield »

MT you may have hit the proverbial nail on the head. My wife has had a recent penchant for Irish music brought on by her coming across a particular Celtic group. All things Irish so to speak. She knew that I have messed with whistles for awhile so she thought she'd try the flute. She used to play a baroque recorder. She tried the flute and deemed it too hard. I believe she's not really wanting to embark on a journey that requires as much work as the transverse flute right now. So I'm gonna let a sleeping dog lay for now. I may one day if the funds present themselves get one to mess with myself (that she would be more than welcome to mess with) because they're fascinating to me. That's about the extent of it right now. I had hoped she would be more interested but she's just not quite there right now. Maybe in the future. I do appreciate everyone's comments and advice.
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Re: Possible a dumb question but.......

Post by Nanohedron »

Steve Hatfield wrote:I believe she's not really wanting to embark on a journey that requires as much work as the transverse flute right now.
If that is the case, then she should know that other than being a way to deal with hand span issues, going keyed is not going to make fluteplaying any easier than not having them. Handling-wise it IS a different instrument, but that's pretty much where it ends, for broadly speaking the issues of developing a good working embouchure and good tone and pitch control still apply no matter what, and that, really, is the main thing more than anything else about flutes in general. I recall talking about flutes to someone, a box player, and he seemed rather astonished to learn that these things don't just play themselves.
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