advise for "indestructible" flute purchase

[shagager]

Hello all!

I'll bore you with the history first so my request makes a bit more sense.

I am a US Army Bandman (flute player) currently deployed to the Middle East. I've toyed around with ITM for quite a few years and want to stop toying and get a bit more serious. I play on a Muratmatsu AD (personal horn) with a classic Muramatsu headjoint. Back before my Abel wooden headjoint was stolen I used that in sessions and it gave my flute an amazing woody sound. Since I was only "noodling" at the time my trusty Boehm was more than satisfactory.

I say all of this because I'd like to buy a keyless flute in order to utilize the time I have while deployed to work on my ITM chops with the correct hand positions and true fingerings. I've already picked out a few wooden ones I'd like to try after my return to the US. But since I am deployed, I am not going to buy a wooden flute just to have it destroyed in the weather here. My silver flute takes enough of a beating as it is. Combing through the major forums, it sounds like the Copley Delrin is the way to go. Can anyone help with the following questions:

What's the biggest difference in the two embouchure cuts? Are they comparable to equivalent cuts on a Boehm headjoint (like my Abel)?

How indestructible is "indestructible?" It can reach up to 135F here. (This would also become my travel and crap weather instrument.)

Does the material of the rings make any difference in the sound or is it just aesthetic? He lists ivory and silver on his website.

What's the difference between with rings and without?

How does the weight stack up against a .016 silver flute or a full blackwood Boehm?

What case would be a good fit? Smaller is better as I'll already have three instruments to hand carry back.

Copley currently lists a 4 week waiting period before shipping so I need to order within the next week or so as our mail services are being drastically reduced.

Thanks in advance for your assistance. I look forward to seeing what you have to say.

Stefani

[James_Alto]

Hi there,

I wonder what you were using before, to play ITM? Surely not a Boehm flute?!

Don't know the Copleys - however if you are a flute player and the Boehm is your standard - you can still use a grenaditte or artificial substance keyed flute:

http://www.gflute.com/en2/

You can try one out if you have a flute convention near you. I was very impressed. By the sound - not the aesthetics. The aesthetics are really off-putting, but it's surprisingly good. 135F - no problem. No cracks.

[jim stone]

Hello all!

I'll bore you with the history first so my request makes a bit more sense.

I am a US Army Bandman (flute player) currently deployed to the Middle East. I've toyed around with ITM for quite a few years and want to stop toying and get a bit more serious. I play on a Muratmatsu AD (personal horn) with a classic Muramatsu headjoint. Back before my Abel wooden headjoint was stolen I used that in sessions and it gave my flute an amazing woody sound. Since I was only "noodling" at the time my trusty Boehm was more than satisfactory.

I say all of this because I'd like to buy a keyless flute in order to utilize the time I have while deployed to work on my ITM chops with the correct hand positions and true fingerings. I've already picked out a few wooden ones I'd like to try after my return to the US. But since I am deployed, I am not going to buy a wooden flute just to have it destroyed in the weather here. My silver flute takes enough of a beating as it is. Combing through the major forums, it sounds like the Copley Delrin is the way to go. Can anyone help with the following questions:

What's the biggest difference in the two embouchure cuts? Are they comparable to equivalent cuts on a Boehm headjoint (like my Abel)?

How indestructible is "indestructible?" It can reach up to 135F here. (This would also become my travel and crap weather instrument.)

Does the material of the rings make any difference in the sound or is it just aesthetic? He lists ivory and silver on his website.

What's the difference between with rings and without?

How does the weight stack up against a .016 silver flute or a full blackwood Boehm?

What case would be a good fit? Smaller is better as I'll already have three instruments to hand carry back.

Copley currently lists a 4 week waiting period before shipping so I need to order within the next week or so as our mail services are being drastically reduced.

Thanks in advance for your assistance. I look forward to seeing what you have to say.

Stefani

1. I think Dave C has an embouchure cut that's the rounded rectangle of the boehm flute, which you
know well and also an oval which is more traditional. So you will have no trouble with the rounded rectangle,
knowing it already. However the oval has a darker sound, probably, more in line with what's traditional
in Irish flute music (though the whole thing is controversial). As you already are up to speed
you should have no trouble with the oval, just some getting used to it. I know when I asked Dave
which was best for me (I've been playing ten years, about) he said the oval. So you have to decide.
Either way you can play the flute.

2. Delrin is pretty darn well indestructible. I don't know at what temp delrin melts but you are probably
OK. A good idea is to e mail Dave and ask him. He is a lovely and helpful fellow.

3. I don't think the rings make a difference to the sound. They are there to reinforce the flute at
the tenons. However I doubt that that's needed with delrin flutes, so it's largely aesthetic.
I think Dave sells one without rings at all, so I doubt there is any structural benefit. Ask him
if such flutes are vulnerable, but I doubt it seriously.

4. I don't think Dave's flute is particularly heavy. I've played one. Weight won't be an issue.

5. Cavallero soft cases are nice. Cheaper is a cheap pistol-case (Dave has these).
The flute will be easy to transport due to the delrin. Indestructible.

Strongly recommend your writing to Dave. Search on his name or Celtic Lands Flutes.
Ask questions here too, sure and these makers are good people. May be able
to time the sending to suit your needs. Hope this helps, Jim

[dontf]

Delrin's the stuff, Copleys are great, the ones without rings are the same as the ones with. Try the Irish Flute Store on line, Doc usually has some in stock, also from a couple other makers. Good luck over there!

[bepoq]

One of my students is just back from Afghanistan, a Major of Marines. We found him a Cochran delrin to take (Jon Cornia, the maker, posts on here, so you could ask him about it), which he said served him very well, and which was a very very nice playing flute, among the best delrins that I've come across. The acetyl (Delrin is Dupont's brand name for it I believe) is more or less indestructible, and you'll not have to worry about it. I'd strongly recommend one of the cavallaro soft cases for one of those too, as you've no need to keep out the elements etc. and it makes for a smaller package, easier to carry about or tuck into your gear and one which nobody mistakes for a pistol. Anyway, that was my student's experience. I've also had experience with Seery's which are often very good but occasionally variable. Best of luck to you and feel free to get in touch from over there if you need any help/advice on the Irish trad.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I don't think you will go wrong with Delrin flutes from a good maker, such as Copley & Begley, Rob Forbes, Desi Seery, M&E or even Dixon.

[tucson_whistler]

a delrin flute left out in the sun at 135F probably wouldn't survive the experience. what their exact tolerance is, i'm not sure, but Mr. Copley could probably tell you. You can email him at copleyflutes at gmail.com; he is a very nice person to deal with, in my experience.

in my experience the square cut is easier to start on and will give you a bit more volume, but some experienced players on this board might tell you that it would eventually hold you back (your embouchure will develop slower). but that information is subjective, everybody has an opinion.

rings will not effect the sound, but they do look much nicer, and if you ever want to re-sell it having the silver rings would probably make that easier. in my experience ivory rings will crack, although Mr. Copley will tell you his will not.

Doc has a D/Eb set without rings for sale, and an Eb Copley for sale; it is possible if you contact him he might be able to get you a D faster than Mr. Copley's regular wait list. You might also try contacting Mr. Copley directly there too; he might have something on hand. (An occasional customer or 2 backs out at the last minute.)

The Forbes is also a good flute, my favorite so far is the Seery. I also have an ebonite M&E, the tone of which i prefer, but the tuning is not as good.

i use a pistol case, but i could see where you might not want to do that. all sorts of various cloth cases are available on ebay...

last thing, if Mr. Copley tells you delrin can't survive 135F, then a cheaper option is the also virtually indestructible material know as pvc... they maybe don't look as nice, but Mr. Tipple's pvc flutes can take a beating, come with a cloth case, and are easy to resell/trade.

good luck

cheers,
eric

[plunk111]

According to this, delrin is OK at temperatures between 160 - 185 degrees F. Another site says the melting point is 347 degrees. I think you're probably OK unless you leave it sitting on a sidewalk.

I heartily second (third?) the recommendation for Dave Copley's flutes. I have owned 4 of his flutes (2 in blackwood and 2 in delrin) and my current is a silver-ringed delrin with an elliptical embouchure and a C-nat thumbhole. Neither the embouchure or thumbhole cost extra, btw.

Dave is really great to deal with as well. Doc Jones (at the Irish Flute Store) is super to deal with as well, so you can't go wrong using either option.

Good Luck in your quest!

Pat

[I.D.10-t]

Wonder of a one piece like Hammy's one piece would be better (never tried one though). With the tight tolerances of the corkless tenons I'd worry more about the sand in the assembly and disassemble (and the joint grease will attract dust). I'd clean it often.

Delrin has a heat distortion temp. that is the same as boiling water(100°C)* and it will melt at 350°F, or what I'd bake a bread pudding at. I'd think the usable range listed above takes that into account. Total weight for my flute (no rings, adj. stopper) is 281g or 9-7/8oz. For embouchure cut I chose the elliptical one (or whatever is less squared off), but I really don't think it would have made much of a difference. If you are coming from the metal flute with one of the standard rectangular cuts, you may want to stick with the standard cut he puts on the plastic ones. Either way I'll bet it will feel different when you blow it.

The rings are for looks and add cost. It isn't wood, so the extra strength isn't needed and is there to cope with properties of wood, but are just cosmetic on plastic.

My flute came with a corduroy pocketed roll, and for most things I would think that would be all the protection I'd need if I pack it along with other things carefully.

I found Copley to be easy to deal with and ended up asking questions and he answered quickly.

*I think PVC has a range of 50-80 °C, lower than Delrin.

[jemtheflute]

Don't forget Delrin specialist Garry Somers, who is a C&F member. I've no experience of his flutes, but he clearly knows what he's about and they look the part.

[crookedtune]

I have a blackwood Copley and a delrin Seery. They play VERY similarly, and I like one about as well as the other, (other than my aesthetic preference for wood). I haven't played the others, but all mentioned have great reputations. I'd go for whichever is easiest for you to procure.

[Akiba]

I've tried many delrins. Here's my list:

1) Rob Forbes --if you have good-sized hands, I'd go for this. The best delrin I've played.

2) Dave Copley -- get the elliptical embouchure; another fine flute

3) M&E -- get the Rudall and Rose model, not the old model

4) John Cornia/Cochrane -- John cuts an excellent embouchure; not sure if he's still making them new.

5) Summers -- based on the sound clip seem very promising; would like to try one

[drewr]

I left my Copley delrin out in the sun last summer for a few minutes on a hot day and it was enough to make the gold embossing run a little bit. I live in Canada, which is hardly the Middle East. Didn't harm the delrin itself, however.

[I.D.10-t]

I requested that he didn't add the gold and he left it off for me. Still has the impression, just no gold fill.

[tin tin]

Forbes and Copley both make excellent flutes that will be up to your standards. Either one will serve you very well. No offense to the other makes listed, but I'd short-list these two. My flute (pictured to the left) is a Copley. The Forbes I tried was excellent--reminded me a lot of an Olwell, which is a fine compliment.

Copley's two embouchure cuts are roughly comparable to equivalent cuts on Boehm hj. I prefer the elliptical, but coming from 15 years on the Boehm flute, it did take me some time to fully come to grips with it.

Yes, the rings are purely aesthetic--they play no functional role on a Delrin flute. The only difference is cost and looks. As for weight, I don't recall the Delrin flutes I've played being particularly heavy.

http://www.copleyflutes.com/
http://forbesflutes.com/