Rudall Headjoint on ebay

[dunnp]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-wooden-wo ... 3cb94a221a

anybody have just a body?

[radcliff]

anybody have just a body?

Sounds like a philosophical question...
Nice head, I wonder why the man is selling it.

[jim stone]

I wonder if these are worth having? I've read that modern replacements are often
superior to originals. Certainly not uncommon for people who get old Rudalls
to have a new headjoint made. This one has a circular embouchure hole, too. Might be disappointing.

[benhall.1]

I've read that modern replacements are oftensuperior to originals.

Where? Do you have a source? I'm genuinely curious, because, in my admittedly limited experience, some of the old headjoints are fantastic.

This one has a circular embouchure hole, too. Might be disappointing.

Why? I have one old flute with a circular embouchure. It's certainly different, but equally certainly not "disappointing". But that's just one. Is there a tendency for circular embouchure cuts to be less good than other shapes? There's probably an old thread here that would give me an answer I suppose. I'll go and look ... but in the meantime, any info, Jim?

[Julia Delaney]

This one has a circular embouchure hole, too. Might be disappointing.

Why would the circular hole be a problem and possibly disappointing? Or did I not understand you...?

[eilam]

the original headjoint on my R&R is really great, peter Noy make a second one which is very different and i usually use, but each time i switch to the original i'm taken by how great it plays, and the embouchure seems very similar.

[Aanvil]

This one has a circular embouchure hole, too. Might be disappointing.

Why would the circular hole be a problem and possibly disappointing? Or did I not understand you...?

I wonder that too. I have round emb. It's powerful and reedy or sweet if you want it.


If one is disappointed it a vintage RR round emb it just might not be the flute.

[jim stone]

I like circular embouchure's and have played them a good deal on Doug's flutes,
but never on a standard "Irish' wooden flute.
As Ben said, the sound is different. I was raising tentative questions and tentative
doubts. I was wondering if the difference would produce the sort of sound
many want in playing ITM as well as the oval embouchure does.

I don't remember, in fact, who said that contemporary replacements are often
better than original RR headjoints. (Note, by the way, that this is consistent with
there being some fine original headjoints.) I read it here from someone I respect, as best
I can recall. Actually searched but can't find it. There's no need to put any stock in it, certainly.
My own experiences with
original Rudall headjoints are limited and less good, but I don't think they
amount to anything solid.

I'm pleased to read these reports of great original head joints. Was wondering
about this sort of thing. Thanks for the responses.

[kkrell]

I like circular embouchure's and have played them a good deal on Doug's flutes,
but never on a standard "Irish' wooden flute.
As Ben said, the sound is different. I was raising tentative questions and tentative
doubts. I was wondering if the difference would produce the sort of sound
many want in playing ITM as well as the oval embouchure does.

I don't remember, in fact, who said that contemporary replacements are often
better than original RR headjoints. (Note, by the way, that this is consistent with
there being some fine original headjoints.) I read it here from someone I respect, as best
I can recall. Actually searched but can't find it. There's no need to put any stock in it, certainly.
My own experiences with
original Rudall headjoints are limited and less good, but I don't think they
amount to anything solid.

I'm pleased to read these reports of great original head joints. Was wondering
about this sort of thing. Thanks for the responses.

Jim, I was wondering if you already play a Rudall-style flute at all? My initial impression when trying out Jon C.'s flutes and instruments he had in for repair was that I couldn't even make a sound on one, so I certainly didn't understand the attraction. I was used to a Hammy Hamilton Pratten-style. Eventually I got the hang of the Rudalls.

[RudallRose]

Nice head, I wonder why the man is selling it

from what i understand (and the seller did reach out to me on it) it was because a flute he had purchased had this rudall/rose head joint on it. the flute was not a rudall.

Sort of like the olden days' version of us putting moder hj on an antique flute.

anyways, that's the only reason as far as I know.

I have several rudall original headjoints that are marvelous, some small and round emb and others oval and larger.
some RR emb cuts were very steep chimneys (isn't that what Wilkes favored? I remember Andrew Kirby r.i.p. telling me that) and others much more forgiving, or as Andrew used to say, "flabby."
Modern HJ tend to have a different sound for little more reason, I believe, than the thickness (or depth) of the chimney. They give more horsepower.....but some flutes don't require it, so it's sort of like putting a Lamborghini engine in a
VW Beetle.
Pratten emb tend to be larger ovals with some exceptions, but for the most part that's how they were.

The question on the eBay hj is not its shape but rather its undercutting.
And all things equal, the only disappointment would be an unskilled lip unable to produce the narrow airstream to produce a strong tone with a very vertical undercutting.

[Terry McGee]

I don't remember, in fact, who said that contemporary replacements are often
better than original RR headjoints. (Note, by the way, that this is consistent with
there being some fine original headjoints.) I read it here from someone I respect, as best
I can recall. Actually searched but can't find it.

Is it possible it was a remark of mine, Jim, from my http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/FluteTone-P ... ations.htm?

23. New heads on old flutes

It's my routine experience that a 19th century flute usually benefits dramatically from being fitted with a new head. I'd feel better about that, if I could always confidently point to what's wrong with the old head. Sometimes it's obvious, and that's fine. But I've had many cases of old heads that just don't sound good. I've tested them for leakage, replaced stoppers, inspected them for damage to the edge or chimney and found nothing. Clearly I need to look harder!

It is a topic I intend to research more thoroughly, although it's hard to know where to start!

Terry

[Proscribed material removed - Mod]

[Jon C.]

I like to restore the flute with the original head joint if possible. I think the original embouchure is really the soul of the flute, designed to work best for the flute. Of course when you have the head designed for a different frequency, or damaged beyond repair, then I can see it. My favorite embouchure cut was done on the flute made by Wylde.

[plamas]

I'd have to say, having asked the seller to post a pic of the embouchure, that this is a recut embouchure. I have never seen a circular Rudall embouchure of that size, and I'd be doubtful that in fact they ever made heads with circular embouchures, only for the fact that they would make anything that was asked of them, and so it's possible from that point of view.
That said, it might play well, or it might not. I'd suggest not, based on the fact that the seller says it's 12mm across, and that would make it very difficult to control.
So what you'd be getting here is a Rudall head, but not a Rudall embouchure.
All the Best
Hammy

[Paul McGlinchey]

I have had a closer look at it. It does not look altered in any way.

Out of interest, I measured the embrouchure on my R&R 2370. It is boxwood with an ivory inlay. 12mm in length, 11mm in width.

Paul

[jim stone]

I like circular embouchure's and have played them a good deal on Doug's flutes,
but never on a standard "Irish' wooden flute.
As Ben said, the sound is different. I was raising tentative questions and tentative
doubts. I was wondering if the difference would produce the sort of sound
many want in playing ITM as well as the oval embouchure does.

I don't remember, in fact, who said that contemporary replacements are often
better than original RR headjoints. (Note, by the way, that this is consistent with
there being some fine original headjoints.) I read it here from someone I respect, as best
I can recall. Actually searched but can't find it. There's no need to put any stock in it, certainly.
My own experiences with
original Rudall headjoints are limited and less good, but I don't think they
amount to anything solid.

I'm pleased to read these reports of great original head joints. Was wondering
about this sort of thing. Thanks for the responses.

Jim, I was wondering if you already play a Rudall-style flute at all? My initial impression when trying out Jon C.'s flutes and instruments he had in for repair was that I couldn't even make a sound on one, so I certainly didn't understand the attraction. I was used to a Hammy Hamilton Pratten-style. Eventually I got the hang of the Rudalls.

Yes, I play Rudall-style flutes chiefly, including one from the 19th century.