Do you hear the difference between a $50 and a $5000 flute?

[James_Alto]

In the woodlands where I play, I had a comment from a passerby this weekend whilst I was playing a $12 wooden flute in the key of D.

He thought it sounded incredible and said I must have an incredibly expensive flute.

At first I thought: "what a put down!"

Would I really say to a pianist: "Cor blimey! What a great sound! You must have a really good piano!"
Or to a painter: "What a gorgeous picture! What paints do you use?"
Or to a photographer: "What a fantastic photograph! You must have a really good camera!"

He went on, to say how amazing it sounded. He was middle-aged, but I gather he didn't listen to much flute music.

Can people tell the difference between a $50 vs $5000 flute? Or is it mostly the flute player and the flute player's peers who notice? And if there Is a difference .... is there really a 100 fold difference?

Curious to see what others think. Thanks!

[Akiba]

I've had that many times--"You sound good. What kind of flute do you play?" I, too, find it a bit insulting.

The $50ish flutes I've had were bamboo simple flutes, and they were pretty good.

Is the $400 flute I play most of the time 8x's better than the bamboo? Yes. I can play much better and with more subtlety, etc.

Is a flute that's $1600 4x's better than the one I play now? As with most things, improving to 70-80% proficient is fairly easy when compared to how much effort and investment it takes to get to 90% and even more so to get to above 90%. The more one strives to be excellent (i.e. as good as one can be) and improves towards that end, the harder it becomes to keep improving towards the top. As such, a top flute helps one get that extra few percentage points. Is it worth it? That's up to the individual. For me, it's a "yes".

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I chose "sometimes" as being the most appropriate. What i mean is that say, Kevin Crawford would likely bring out the most of a cheaper flute, and on the other hand, I wouldn't sound better on a 1850 R&R than i would on a good flute in a more normal price range, so i guess depending on the player i can hear differences, and tonal differences are pretty easy to hear (not sure whether you mean tonal difference as 'quality' or as a proof of an expensive instrument, cause IMO it's really not..
example: I don't like the sound of Grey Larsen's flute very much (All due respect to him as a player, make no mistake about it!)
To my ears something like Marcus Hernon's pratten sound way better (not sure about the price relation between that an Grey Larsen's)
God.. i am rambling.. hope you get the general idea though

EDIT: My personal theory is that the (in)famous comment about playing and what instrument you play is more one where the listener takes for granted/ has already established that you're a good player and ask about the instrument because of its tonal quality, not meant as an insult or assumption that you are a good player just because your particular instrument.

[MTGuru]

I've had that many times--"You sound good. What kind of flute do you play?" I, too, find it a bit insulting.

I think of it like this. Look at it from the non-musician stranger's perspective.

"You sound great!" or "That sounds great!". There's your compliment. They're not necessarily aware of the fine distinctions you might make between the instrument and the player, your technique, repertoire, etc. All they know is that that like what they hear. They're just trying to be nice to a fellow human, and it pays to be gracious in return.

So you say, "Thanks!". Now, they think, what should they say? They could ask about the music, but may be afraid of coming across as ignorant. They could ask about where you learned to play, but may not want to elicit too much personal information. So often they'll focus on your instrument, because it's right there in front of them and it's neutral ground. And everyone knows that musicians love to babble endlessly about their instruments.

These encounters can be wonderful teaching moments if you focus less on your ego and perceived insults, and more on sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm with a well-intentioned stranger who may remember the chance meeting for a long, long time ...

[Unseen122]

I have to agree with MTGuru, this is how I always look at these things. Even if a musician compliments 'the sound of my flute' I still react the same way. It is the player that makes the flute not the flute that makes the player. My answer to the poll would have to be 'sometimes,' as usually there is a significant difference between a $50 and a $5000 flute. For instance Brian Finnegan plays a lot of bamboo flutes but I can't tell the difference between him playing one of them or a conical hardwood flute.

[James_Alto]

Interesting responses everyone - thank you!


Just to put things in perspective, when someone tells me "That'a gorgeous flute you have!", my standard response is:
"that's a fantastic pair of ears you've got!"

No seriously - I couldn't bring myself to be quite so sarcastic to anyone. MT's right, that it's just usually an awkward way to start a conversation with a stranger with no ill boding at all. But this particular example, was just about the 'gear' - equipment fetish, rather than the music. Being out in the woods alone, at times I'm not sure I would feel so comfortable with an expensive $5000 silver Boehm flute, and a 6ft 6" stranger with unknown intentions (sorry - but this is the modern world).

This morning was a stranger experience. A horse and a carriage came trotting down the country path. The rider stopped about 10 metres and I heard clapping.

It made me smile - not because I think I'm any good or anything. My view, is that a flute (and real musical instruments) should be a part of every day consciousness, so much so, that people don't rely on just the radio or cranked out synthetic music.

On a slight tangent, did anyone ever read the social experiment, involving the concert violinist, Joshua Bell, who played incognito on his expensive violin in the streets of New York about 4 years ago?

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/res ... m?ID=11047

He was mostly ignored during the rush hour hubris. People couldn't care for his music, let alone, tell the difference between a $50 violin and a $50,000 one due to the context.

I'm pleased to see that 2/3's of us so far can tell the difference. I'm a 'sometimes' person. I have bad embouchure days, particularly after playing the harmonica (!) and I have the incredible skill of making a $5000 flute sound like a $50 one

[Rob Sharer]

It has happened more than once that I got more comments on a (usetabe) $50 bamboo flute than on a modern keyed flute of 70 times the price, both played on the same show. Last weekend, for example.

Price is a lousy measure. What about a $50 ebay find that happens to be stellar? Or an over-priced modern flute that happens to be a clunker? Both are out there, believe me.

So, the answer to the question is, "Dunno, can you play them for me a bit first?"



Rob

[jim stone]

About Bell, I believe he made 33 dollars in 43 minutes, which isn't bad for a street musician. The article
supposes that there is a rational relation tween how well you play, on the one hand,
and what folks give you, on the other. That's doubtful. It's more like fishing. Sometimes the fish are biting,
sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are, you get nothing. Maybe it's sunspots. One can't draw real
conclusions from one 43 minute segment. No mechanism exists tween excellence and yield, except that
perhaps one does better over the long term.

ON the street people are interested in my instrument largely because they've never seen or heard such
a thing before. Also inexpensive instruments tend to do better, maybe, because people are more amazed
that you are getting music like THAT out of a piece of bamboo, is that what that is? And, of course, you don't want to risk
something expensive out there.

[Akiba]

Point well taken, MT. I do appreciate the compliment, and say "Thanks". I will then usually talk for as long as they seem interested about the flute, its origin, Irish fluting, etc. Just being honest about part of my multi-sided internal response to such comments.

[Cathy Wilde]

The way I look at it is hey, at least they care. And I'd much rather be pelted with innocent/uninformed questions than rotten vegetables. (The "what kind of clarinet is that?" people kind of make me snicker, though)

[jim stone]

Yes, at a session I attended last week a very drunken woman staggered in from the adjoining bar,
danced horribly, then flopped all over me and inshisted that thatsh shure a funny looking clarinet.... Finally her boyfriend
found her and led her back to the bar. One of the darker moments in my musical career.

[Casey Burns]

I think if this was tested in strict scientific terms, one might hear the difference.

But much of it depends upon the player and how the player interfaces with the flutes being tested. A great player can make almost any tube with holes in it sound great.

Like quantum mechanics, much of it also depends upon the observer as well as the observed. Someone who is new to music will be easily impressed.

Correlating how a flute sounds to its dollar value is a very rough concept. There is also dollar inflation to consider. If the dollar collapses and ends up being like a Weimar currency, then the difference between $50 and $5000 may only be a few teaspoons of bread crumbs.

[Doug_Tipple]

If the dollar collapses and ends up being like a Weimar currency, then the difference between $50 and $5000 may only be a few teaspoons of bread crumbs.

My wife says that I worry too much about things that I can't control. Ignorance may be bliss, but I never really got the hang of it.

[Kirk B]

Yes, at a session I attended last week a very drunken woman staggered in from the adjoining bar,
danced horribly, then flopped all over me and inshisted that thatsh shure a funny looking clarinet.... Finally her boyfriend
found her and led her back to the bar. One of the darker moments in my musical career.

We have a world class piper (Andrew Carlisle) who sometimes attends our session. He usually generates a lot of interest from people who tend to wander past the entrance to the back room and hear us playing. One night we got one of "those guys" who came in, sat down and proceeded to lecture us on the history of the Bagpipes.

Cheers,

Kirk

[MTGuru]

On a slight tangent, did anyone ever read the social experiment, involving the concert violinist, Joshua Bell, who played incognito on his expensive violin in the streets of New York about 4 years ago?

IIRC, that was in the Washington, DC metro, not New York. Which may have made a difference; the DC stations are somewhat cleaner and Washingtonians are marginally less rude.

I'd imagine commuting hours are probably the worst time to busk. And the afternoon commute probably more effective than the morning. Faced with a choice of stopping to listen and being screamed at by the boss for being late to work ... well, you know. And celebrity is a relative thing. Joshua who?

My view, is that a flute (and real musical instruments) should be a part of every day consciousness, so much so, that people don't rely on just the radio or cranked out synthetic music.

Hear, hear. For most people now, that music is something ordinary people do, not just something to be consumed, is less and less obvious.