Flute Dilemma - Semi-professional flutes

[I.D.10-t]

Which leads to the question: is there a reason to play ITM on boehm flutes?
They seem to have a plain advantage with jazz and classical and they are
tempting because you can get a very good one for less money than you
can get a very good 'Irish flute.' And what would be the sort of boehm one would
want, given that one isn't up in the fourth octave, etc?

Not sure, but maybe volume, cost, intonation, availability to test and try, consistency of tone between notes, better ergonomics, ability to play a wide range of keys, ability to switch between styles of music, prior familiarity, ease of finding repair work and parts, fewer humidity concerns, less cracking, lighter weight, no cork grease, wood allergies, large choice of head makers/styles, etc.?

Versatile, yet I cannot find one youtube vid of someone playing Shika no Tone on one...

[Gordon]

Which leads to the question: is there a reason to play ITM on boehm flutes?
They seem to have a plain advantage with jazz and classical and they are
tempting because you can get a very good one for less money than you
can get a very good 'Irish flute.' And what would be the sort of boehm one would
want, given that one isn't up in the fourth octave, etc?

Reason probably has nothing to do with it. Boehm flutes articulate well, and, while you can mimic a wooden flute on one, sort of, you don't have to; there's a wide variety of tonal offerings that are both interesting and useful, or just plain different. If you already play a Boehm, it'd be the easier and obvious choice, especially for strange keys or chromatic shifts. The ability to play tunes into a higher octave (or more) might be an asset in a mid-rangey session, although it also might annoy everyone who wasn't already annoyed at the whistles.

OTOH, well... for years here, we've all listed the many reasons why the wooden flute sounds great, or better, for ITM.

I started on a Boehm, years back, and have recently started playing a Boehm again regularly, while keeping at my keyless for pure trad. I always felt more at ease on one, honestly, mostly because my background is improvisational rock, blues, and classical, and not ITM, which I (still) have to work hard at internalizing.

Price is a toss-up; for ITM, a decent student flute can probably do you fine as a fully chromatic flute, and costs well below a decent keyed wooden one. But if you wanted an intermediate-or-better Boehm, you'd eclipse even the more expensive wooden flutes in short order; they can range from $2K to well above $10K or more, depending. BTW, Yamaha student flutes have recently jumped into the formerly-intermediate price range of $900 or so; IMO, they are overpriced now as beginner models, and there are equal or better student brands for less ($500 or so.)

Oh, and while I'm contributing here.. an earlier post implied (if I read it correctly) that playing on Boehm keys are slower than, presumably, the same piece on a wooden flute, without keys; this is not true at all, as any number of exceedingly fast classical or jazz scores or performances will attest. You will play slower on either type if you are not used to it.

[peeplj]

Oh, and while I'm contributing here.. an earlier post implied (if I read it correctly) that playing on Boehm keys are slower than, presumably, the same piece on a wooden flute, without keys; this is not true at all, as any number of exceedingly fast classical or jazz scores or performances will attest. You will play slower on either type if you are not used to it.

I agree--a well-adjusted key mechanism on a quality Boehm-system flute won't slow you down-in fact, once you are used to the flute, you won't "feel" the keys at all.

There are some advantages to each type of flute, of course, even if the speed at which you can play them isn't one. If you need to play music in many different key signatures, the Boehm probably has a bit of advantage as it was literally designed with this in mind. Now I'm not saying it's easier as far as fingering...familiarity with the fingering system is entirely the responsibility of the player! But as far as even tone and intonation from key to key, the advantage goes to the Boehm sytem.

I do think this is offset, though, by the large number of alternative fingerings you can use on the keyed wooden flute, especially to simplify passages in art music that go into the third octave.

In Irish trad specifically, the advantage goes to the simple system ("Irish") flute. Because your fingers lie directly on the tone holes, with no intervening mechanism of keys and rings, things like slides, ornamentation, and fingered vibrato are easier than they are on the Bohem system flute. Fingered vibrato in particular just doesn't work well at all on the Boehm-system flute.

Just my $.02.

--James

[James_Alto]

Which leads to the question: is there a reason to play ITM on boehm flutes?
They seem to have a plain advantage with jazz and classical and they are
tempting because you can get a very good one for less money than you
can get a very good 'Irish flute.' And what would be the sort of boehm one would
want, given that one isn't up in the fourth octave, etc?

I often wonder the same. To be honest, I actually prefer the 'sound' of my more specialist ethnic flutes, than the standard Boehm concert flute (the alto flute, however is a different matter altogether, and I love the sound of this even more). It's just than the Boehm flute is very versatile: you can use it to play most things, with a few limitations, whereas ethnic keyed flutes, like the Irish flute, are fixed in a specific key - and you'd need an army of flutes to cover all the available Irish music out there ... not to mention regional music; Balkan; Armenian; Native American; Southern American; Chinese; Japanese. All of these regional styles are possible (but not necessarily great sounding!) on a Boehm.

In that respect - I think a Boehm flute is a good investment for your music taste if you wish to learn one embouchure style as a newcomer to flutes, rather than buy a Duduk, or a pentatonic minor flute, which requires different skills for embouchure, or many different kinds of competing embouchures to master, before churning anything vaguely reminiscent of 'music'. A Boehm flute can be used to get a taste for the music - and if you like the music, then move on into building up an array of ethnic flutes, and then learning to specialise in different embouchures. Alternatively - a fipple whistle is a great way to start

Contrary to what others say - I find I am much faster on open hole flutes, compared to closed key or open key Boehm flutes. The same is true for the baroque flute, and as great as keys are, they limit how your finger dexterity gets the finger a The spring mechanism of the Boehm flute requires a travel distance, so when you are bending notes using finger slides, you have to actually depress the key first, and then slide on, or slide off the finger. This is a longer action than on an open hole flute. I prefer open key flutes over closed key flutes, although these are more expensive. I can't say I play a huge amount of ITM - I only have a few volumes, and most are jigs and reels, less than 1 minute long. However when people hear ITM played on a Boehm flute - their reaction is usually very curious: to hear it played on a different instrument, than a traditional tin whistle, really makes their minds perk up

Not sure, but maybe volume, cost, intonation, availability to test and try, consistency of tone between notes, better ergonomics, ability to play a wide range of keys, ability to switch between styles of music, prior familiarity, ease of finding repair work and parts, fewer humidity concerns, less cracking, lighter weight, no cork grease, wood allergies, large choice of head makers/styles, etc.?

[/quote]

Well said. I've just cracked two wooden flutes from overplaying this weekend in the open (15 degrees Celsius). Although a metal or composite Boehm system flute can cost as cheap as $100 secondhand for a decent one, or up to $4000 for a semi-professional one - my Boehm flutes have lasted years with no maintainance issues (just the usual spring mechanism servicing + pad changes).

[crookedtune]

I can't say I play a huge amount of ITM - I only have a few volumes, and most are jigs and reels, less than 1 minute long.

Well, who knows? Maybe you could string a few of 'em together, or something.

[Jäger]

I can't say I play a huge amount of ITM - I only have a few volumes, and most are jigs and reels, less than 1 minute long.

Well, who knows? Maybe you could string a few of 'em together, or something.

Wouldn't the trad police surely (and surly) frown upon such incredibly unorthodox and, dare I say it, even lewd behaviour?

[James_Alto]

Are you familiar with the Mel Bay Irish Music series?

I bought a few volumes, including Balkan music. Some of the jigs and reels, especially the Balkan melodies, are barely 3 lines long.

I can barely remember any of the music that I play from these: they are so unmemorable. Now when I read other music, like for instance, Jonathan Stock's oriental classic transcripts of dizi flute music - especially 'Purple Bamboo Melody' transcripted - Jonathan includes all of the ornamentation for Boehm flute players, so that you don't have to 'fill in' your own rolls, kashes, cuts and so on. These 'Irish music' series - bring back nothing of the memories of being in County Galway, listening to fiddlers and penny whistlers jamming along in a tightly packed cramp little rural pub inn, where families and kids had all joined in late evening.

There is this one:


which I haven't got (yet). Anyone got it? Is it better than the other ones?

Maybe I should make a new thread.....sorry if this is off topic.

[MTGuru]

which I haven't got (yet). Anyone got it? Is it better than the other ones?

Maybe I should make a new thread.....sorry if this is off topic.

Yes, OT ... And also a very well-worn (and contentious) topic here. Please try a forum search / Google search first!

[crookedtune]

Yes, and then we can talk more about learning with our ears, rather than our eyes. It's well-worn ground, but solid still.

[James_Alto]

The aural form of tradition is probably the first hand method most of us would like to grasp ITM ... if we had the opportunity.
The Larsen book is intriguing, if anything because it describes a way to get a handle on ITM for the Boehm flute. That's not to say it's any good, but it is a start!

Maybe the great thing about books like this, is that it actually makes (non-purist) ITM available, albeit in a superficial form, for Boehm flute players.

That can't be a bad thing, can it?

[peeplj]

I have that book...I can't really say I'd recommend it, for many reasons. One of the foremost is that the settings of tunes in this book are so off that you won't be able to play most of them in a session.

If you want a tutorial, I think you'd be better off with something like the Vallelly book and just hit your local music store for a fingering chart for the Boehm-system flute (or look up one online).

Just my $.02.

--James