second octave

[skyspirit]

I need some help with the second octave on an irish flute. I made a flute from schedule 40 pvc and have adjusted the cork to 1 diameter from the center of the emb. I made the head from some 3/4 silverline. The emb is 3/8. The lower octave is fine. It is the upper that is giving me fits. Is it my emb or would the wedge that Doug Tipple talks about help. I thought that the wedge would make the upper register more in tune, that is not flat.

I really believe that it is me and not the emb hole, cork position, or wedge. I read "Paul Mulvaney's Flute Tutorial Essay". It really helped me with my emb in the first octave. What techniques would you suggest? Could it be the flute?

Thanks. Be well.

[LorenzoFlute]

I'm not a maker but... How could you make a decent flute if you don't know how to blow it? Isn't it a better idea to first get a working flute to practice your embouchure with?

[Kypfer]

Try leaving LH1 (the fingerhole nearest the mouthpiece) open, with all the other holes closed ... do you get a high D?
Now try for a high E by playing E normally then opening LH1 ever so slightly (the term is "venting") ... do you get a high E?
If this all works, from my VERY LIMITED experience, you need to work on your embouchure, 'cos it would appear the flute itself is functioning, if only in a basic manner.

If you can't get any high notes ... sorry, not a problem I've experienced.

I struggled for a while at this point up until a few weeks ago when all of a sudden I could "get it right" and make a second octave note ... I still struggle to fit them into a tune, mind, but at least I can make them

[crookedtune]

The best way to know whether the problem lies with you or the flute is to have at least one good, playable instrument around to serve as your baseline. It could be something as simple as a bamboo or Tipple PVC flute.

If the purchased flute plays well, and your homemade one doesn't, you know the fault is with your flute, and not your playing. Good luck!

[skyspirit]

I'm not a maker but... How could you make a decent flute if you don't know how to blow it? Isn't it a better idea to first get a working flute to practice your embouchure with?

I have been making flutes of all sorts. For a very long time. I make end blown flutes (anasazi, shakuhacchi and quena). So, I know how to make them and know how they should sound. Besides, I have a tuner also.

[skyspirit]

Try leaving LH1 (the fingerhole nearest the mouthpiece) open, with all the other holes closed ... do you get a high D?
Now try for a high E by playing E normally then opening LH1 ever so slightly (the term is "venting") ... do you get a high E?
If this all works, from my VERY LIMITED experience, you need to work on your embouchure, 'cos it would appear the flute itself is functioning, if only in a basic manner.

If you can't get any high notes ... sorry, not a problem I've experienced.

I struggled for a while at this point up until a few weeks ago when all of a sudden I could "get it right" and make a second octave note ... I still struggle to fit them into a tune, mind, but at least I can make them

Well, this is correct. I can do as you suggest. I haven't tried the the high E. I bet a half hole might do that. It would be my emb.

[skyspirit]

The best way to know whether the problem lies with you or the flute is to have at least one good, playable instrument around to serve as your baseline. It could be something as simple as a bamboo or Tipple PVC flute.

If the purchased flute plays well, and your homemade one doesn't, you know the fault is with your flute, and not your playing. Good luck!

Point well taken. A miller bamboo might be the ticket.

[jim stone]

millers are very good, imo

[skyspirit]

millers are very good, imo

I have made bamboo shaks, quena, and 3 irish flutes from bamboo. I really like the bamboo sound. I play left handed. So, I wonder if that is an issue. I sent email to Gary Somers who says with his flutes, left handed just a bit more resistence. That seems reasonable. Mine seem to be ok. I wonder about miller flutes.

I also like bamboo because it is naturally conical.

If I can get a D for a good price, I will probably get a miller. I know that I saw one on the Irish Flute Store for $85.

Thanks for your opinion.

[Doug_Tipple]

I play left handed. So, I wonder if that is an issue. I sent email to Gary Somers who says with his flutes, left handed just a bit more resistence. That seems reasonable. Mine seem to be ok.

I think what Gary Somers is saying is that when you play a flute left-handed that was designed to be played right-handed you will be blowing towards the backside of the embouchure hole. That works OK with some flutes (maybe more resistance, as in the Somers flute) but other flutes not so well. I think that it might be wiser to purchase a flute where the embouchure hole is specifically cut for left-hand players.

[Terry McGee]

I need some help with the second octave on an irish flute. I made a flute from schedule 40 pvc and have adjusted the cork to 1 diameter from the center of the emb. I made the head from some 3/4 silverline. The emb is 3/8. The lower octave is fine. It is the upper that is giving me fits. Is it my emb or would the wedge that Doug Tipple talks about help. I thought that the wedge would make the upper register more in tune, that is not flat.

I'm a bit puzzled by the responses you have been receiving, as people seem to be skirting around the elephant in the room. A plain cylindrical flute will inevitably play flat in the second octave (assuming it's correctly tuned in the lower octave), which is why the conical flute was invented in the mid 17th century. Boehm came up with an alternative cure, tapering the head, in the mid 19th century. The wedge and the spike are a variant of Boehm's head taper.

So don't mess around with your blowing, you need to mess around with your flute.

You can reduce the amount of flattening by moving the stopper towards the embouchure, but it is a fudge. Better to get the bore right and reserve the stopper position for tuning the third octave.

Terry

[MTGuru]

So don't mess around with your blowing, you need to mess around with your flute.

Maybe, but this also reinforces the stereotyped difference in attitude of maker and musician, to the extent that the two may be separated. Of course, no one wants a flawed design. But every instrument is imperfect, a bundle of compromises. And given instrument X, adjusting one's skills to that instrument's limitations is part of what musicians do. Including messing around with blowing. The human brain and physiology are amazingly adaptive. Whether the effort involved is seen as a positive challenge or negative impediment to expression, and where that tipping point occurs, is a judgment every player needs to make when confronted with the option of alternate and/or improved designs - which may trade one set of characteristics for another.

In the long run, the perpetual dialectic dance between makers and players is part of what makes instrumental music interesting.

[plunk111]

I'm going to take a different tack here... I looked up "Silverline" pipe (which you say you used for your headjoint)... How thick are the walls of this pipe? If it's thin, you probably aren't getting enough "stack height". This is the reason that Doug sells some of his flutes with a lip-plate - it increases the stack height.

Pat

[Doug_Tipple]

I'm going to take a different tack here... I looked up "Silverline" pipe (which you say you used for your headjoint)... How thick are the walls of this pipe? If it's thin, you probably aren't getting enough "stack height". This is the reason that Doug sells some of his flutes with a lip-plate - it increases the stack height.

Pat

I don't think that the "stack height" or "embouchure chimney depth" is the problem. The Silverline pipe most likely has a wall thickness of about .115 inches. I like to choose pipe with a wall thickness of at least .125 inches. The lip plate on my flutes adds about .075 to make the embouchure chimney depth at .200 inches. This makes for a strong first octave, but it doesn't change the intonation of the second octave.

As has been said already, a cylindrical bore flute will play flat in the upper part of the second octave unless some corrections are made. An easy way to improve the intonation is to use a wedge in the headjoint that approximates the same effect as the parabolic taper in the concert Boehm headjoint, also with a cylindrical flute body. Also, adjustments can be made to the pitch with the players personal embouchure. Even with a very good flute, how one blows the flute is an important aspect of the pitch of the note being played. The professional flautist is constantly listening and making minor adjustments to the pitch with her embouchure. Of course, a well-made flute is easier to play in tune, but a novice can blow even the best flutes out of tune. Likewise, a good player can make a flute with some intonation issues sound like a much better flute. I think that this is true with most other instruments, as the Guru has already said.

[Terry McGee]

Heh heh, we're still skirting around that elephant.

I wonder how many fiddleplayers wouldn't notice if you dropped their E string 30 cents while they were at the bar.

Learn from history if you aren't prepared to listen to science. The conical flute wouldn't have been invented if the cylindrical renaissance flute was good enough.

Terry