Delrin versus copper or other fipple

[mboswell]

Greetings all,
I am posting another question specifically regarding fipples. I have been told that a copper fipple will produce more moisture (from condensation I guess?) than a delrin fipple.
Have any of you found this to be true? If so, was enough moisture produced to negatively affect the sound? Is it also true for aluminum or brass fipples?
Thank you,
Michael

[mboswell]

Oh, and I did search the forum to see if other discussions have been posted on this topic. I couldn't find any, which surprised me. So if this topic is simply an endless repitition of info, please feel free to direct me to the appriate thread.
Thank you.

[JTC111]

I'm no scientist, but as I understand it, condensation occurs when your warm moist breath comes into contact with the cold metal of a fipple or mouthpiece. I've no idea if one metal would attract more condensation than any other but all metals will allow for condensation to form under the condition I described. When folks refer to "warming up" a whistle, this is one of the reasons for doing so... to get the whistle head warmed up to the point that there will be a reduction in the amount of condensation that would have formed had the whistle been played cold.

That said, I don't think it would play much of a role in my decision-making were I shopping for a whistle. MK and Overton whistles have metal fipples and they're as highly regarded as they come. Besides, it only takes a minute or two to warm up a whistle.

[Denny]

I have been told that a copper fipple will produce more moisture (from condensation I guess?) than a delrin fipple.

I would have guessed increased salivation.


Copper horse bits are for horses with dry mouths.

[Byll]

I certainly agree with Jim's reply. However, on stage in front of an audience, one rarely has but a few moments to warm an instrument, before playing, and the often over-cooled temperatures of concert areas can create a real challenge for whistle players. I have always found that a well designed instrument will minimize the issue, but never eradicate it, entirely. I play instruments made of thin walled brass, thin and thick walled aluminum, CPVC, and Dymondwood. Depending on the temperature and humidity, they all have minor clogging and tuning challenges, at times. I sometimes pick up the whistle that is going to be used in the next song or tune, as I am putting away the previous whistle. I then wrap my hand or hands around the mouth/head piece, and hold the whistle in that way, while banter and introductions of the next selection are occurring, on stage - in the fervent hope that my body heat transfers to the instrument. Often works for me...

Best to all.
Byll

[JTC111]

I certainly agree with Jim's reply. However, on stage in front of an audience, one rarely has but a few moments to warm an instrument, before playing, and the often over-cooled temperatures of concert areas can create a real challenge for whistle players.

True. Perhaps a small electric heating pad would be useful in those situations? You could put a nice tartan cover on it to disguise it and leave your whistles under it to keep 'em warmed up.

[Byll]

Interesting idea, Jim. I will have to look at this, more closely. The only challenge will be the number of whistles used in any one concert. Rough guess is 10, multiples from low baritone C through high D. Thanks for the idea.

Cheers.
Byll

[ecohawk]

Good question. I think Jim is right but Denny's point is worth consideration. I have one copper whistle, not a very good whistle I might add, but it isn't better or worse regarding moisture/clogging. I just tried it against a brass Burke and while neither clogged, the copper did increase saliva production. My own experience is that mouthpiece/fipple design is more important than material. My Overton, Goldie and old brass Chieftains and Harpers may have slightly more problems with this than some others, but the very minor inconvenience is more than offset by the brilliance of the instrument itself. And until I saw this post, I realized I hadn't even thought about moisture or clogging for several months with any of my instruments.

Moisture or clogging, if you're positioning the whistle correctly with the tip not protruding past your lips on the inside of your mouth, comes from your breath and is going to condense on any surface which is colder than your breath. That's why fog condenses on any surface; metal, concrete, wood, or glass, unless it is warm - like when you turn your defroster/heater on after starting your car. If you place the mouthpiece farther back in your mouth then saliva which normally coats the inside of your mouth will definitely be a bigger problem. I notice that most high end whistle crafters use short mouthpieces and can't help but wonder if this is why.

I've always been a "dry" whistler because I learned to play recorder first and recorder teachers will literally beat you up if you don't warm your instrument before playing. The time honored tradition was to hold it under your arm (yuck alert ) but it works. They would never blow into an instrument to warm it, under the theory that blowing moist air into the mouthpiece introduces the very same moisture you are trying to avoid. However, I've come to believe that getting it warm and correct mouth positioning is what matters most.

I've learned some techniques that help me a lot. Hold the whistle head either under your arm, in your closed hand (takes 3x longer) or I use one of those microwavable neck wraps, usually filled with buckwheat, which I roll up in my whistle roll case with the whistles I'm going to play closest to the wrap. This will stay warm for more than an hour indoors. I also learned the "sucking back" (another yuck alert ) technique (hey, it is your own spit) from playing recorder. After you do this for a while it becomes second nature and you just do it automatically during rests while playing.

I don't even think about this much anymore since as I've become a better player I've had less of a problem. Though it was never much of a problem for me to start with. YMMV

[RonKiley]

I will not put a copper whistle head in my mouth. It has a very unpleasant taste.

[Daniel_Bingamon]

There is property in materials called "specific heat". Metals can absorb or loose heat at certain speed, they feel cold to the touch. Cold metal cause moisture to condense on it when brought into a warm room. This same property cause moisture in your breath to accumulate easier on flute made of certain metals. Aluminum absorbs a little less than copper or brass.

Some door handles are made of acrylic because it doesn't feel cold to the touch.

What makes Delrin or acetal special is it's surface tension. The moisture droplets on delrin or acetal form small droplets that less likely to clog a whistle. Other materials can form bigger droplets than others.

[I.D.10-t]

Seems like something like Carnauba Wax would help with the surface tension thing. kind of like a poor man's Fog-x. Heat capacity is still going to be the main hurtle.

[swizzlestick]

What makes Delrin or acetal special is it's surface tension. The moisture droplets on delrin or acetal form small droplets that less likely to clog a whistle. Other materials can form bigger droplets than others.

Which I assume is what Duponol does? (Duponol is used by whistle and recorder players to reduce clogging.)

[brewerpaul]

...... I also learned the "sucking back" (another yuck alert ) technique (hey, it is your own spit) from playing recorder. After you do this for a while it becomes second nature and you just do it automatically during rests while playing.

For the most part, it's not even spit but condensed breath moisture. This stuff was in your mouth just moments ago-- no need to be squeamish about sucking it back in. It does indeed become second nature. Even in fast tunes, you can find a note to drop for a quick clearing of the mouthpiece. Consider it a melodic variation.

[swizzlestick]

I use one of those microwavable neck wraps, usually filled with buckwheat, which I roll up in my whistle roll case with the whistles I'm going to play closest to the wrap. This will stay warm for more than an hour indoors.

I thought about a heating pad, but there are times when you won't be near an electrical outlet. The buckwheat wraps seem to cool too quickly, so I am experimenting with a SnuggleSafe, a red disk about the size of a Frisbee that is used to warm pet beds. You put this disk in the Microwave and heat the gel inside for a few minutes until it becomes a liquid. It provides a very even warmth for several hours and is evidently used for treatment of sick dogs and cats. Certainly keeps whistles toasty. I plan to eventually create a whistle pouch with a pocket for the heat disk.

This is way too much trouble for the average session, but it can be very helpful in a cold church basement or outdoors.

[mboswell]

Thanks for all the info gang...very helpful to me.
- Michael