Conical Bores

[wyodeb]

Clarkes and their sidelines come at least in C, don't they?

Because I play with a worship team, I need them to be tunable, since the guitars and piano won't be tuning to me.

[Nanohedron]

Clarkes and their sidelines come at least in C, don't they?

Because I play with a worship team, I need them to be tunable, since the guitars and piano won't be tuning to me.

Right. I was talking about those with the plastic head; Sweetones, aren't they called?

[Kypfer]

those with the plastic head; Sweetones, aren't they called?

... and their cheaper stablemates, the Megs. As with all plastic-headed whistles that aren't designed to be tunable, these will go a bit flat by pulling the head off slightly, but to get one to go sharp might involve some minor surgery, specifically, remove the head completely, shorten the tube slightly and refit the head. Given the Clarke is tapered, removal of too much tube may well result in a loose head. Also note that the Clarke has rather less metal tube in the plastic head than, say, a Generation of similar pitch, so will have less potential adjustment. I think I'd like to confirm the piano to be at least at a near approximation of "concert pitch" before getting too involved in this procedure.

[MTGuru]

The whistle relies on air pressure building up in the tone tube to back up and interrupt the air stream crossing over the window from the wind way exit to the blade. It is this interruption that causes the air to vibrate and make the sound of a note. With a tone tube that gets wider the presser would dissipate, probably get only the sound a whistle head makes with out a tone tube.

Hmmm, I don't think so. There's no "pressure" in the tube, beyond the wave pressure of the standing wave within the tube. What you perceive as backpressure is an impedance effect that occurs at the fipple/air reed itself as it mode-couples to the resonance of the tube. Nearly all the breath pressure exits at the fipple window and doesn't "back up" in the tube.

A conical bore whistle still behaves basically as an open-ended cylinder which is progressively choked toward the end. The main practical effects are to 1. widen the octaves, which tend to be flat on a cylindrical bore; 2. decrease the hole spacing on the bottom hand. Both are good things.

Reversing the cone will have the opposite effects: further flattening the octaves, and increasing the already wide bottom hand hole spacing. Both are bad things. But there's no acoustic reason it won't still sound and play like a whistle*.

* Unless, of course, the flare is so wide relative to the fipple bore that it no longer behaves like a tube.

[DrPhill]

Reversing the cone will have the opposite effects: further flattening the octaves, and increasing the already wide bottom hand hole spacing. Both are bad things. But there's no acoustic reason it won't still sound and play like a whistle*.

* Unless, of course, the flare is so wide relative to the fipple bore that it no longer behaves like a tube.

http://www.garviebagpipes.co.uk/info/wh ... istle.html?

I would love to try one.......

[rhulsey]

Flared flue (whistle type) pipes in pipe organs are oddities, tapered or conical pipes are much more common. Flared ones come by a few names, Dolcan being one that come to mind. They have a characteristic 'horny' or 'rrr' tone to them that seems to be more pronounced in lower pitches than higher, at least on the few that I've worked with. The ratio I recall working with was +4 notes, which would only be about 2.5mm on a D whistle with a 12.5mm ID.

Those Garvie whistles are beautiful things to behold.

Reg

[AvienMael]

well, let's see...

1.) Megs are not cheaper than Sweetones in my experience. From what I can tell, the Sweetone is replacing the Meg. Kinda like buying a Rabbit -vs.- buying a Golf. Same company, same car, same price, different name.

2.) I think what Tommy is getting at relates to the fact that the sound waves are not 2-dimensional, as most representations make them appear. They would be better described as spherical, and they radiate in every direction as they swell and ebb - including back toward the fipple, where they do indeed both meet and offer some resistance (thus, impedance was an apt choice of words). The amount of air that exits through the fipple window plays the largest part in determining how the whistle sounds overall. A breathy sounding whistle allows more air to exit at the fipple window, whereas a purer sounding whistle utilizes more of the breath and focuses it into the bore, and hence, the tone that the whistle produces. Velocity, although it doesn't get much mention on the forum, is another factor in tone production within the whistle. As the airstream travels at higher velocities, the volume of air within the bore increases proportionally, and so too does the bore pressure. A breathy sounding whistle will, in many cases, take most of the air you can give it; but a pure sounding whistle will usually require less air and be more sensitive to higher air volumes and velocities, because they are not designed or voiced to overcome much pressure within the bore - and this pressure would work to cancel the resonant tones. This all relates, in part, to why each key has an optimum bore size... and also why larger bores of the same key tend to sound "mellower" than their smaller-bored counterparts, with what might be regarded as "standard voicing."

[killthemessenger]

Not to interrupt the fun, but does anyone have suggestions for tunable conical-bore whistles in keys besides D — besides the mythical, unobtainable Copelands.

Thanks!
Deb

Phil Bleazey. Not too cheap, but powerful and with a fine rich woody complex tone (I would have said recorder-like, but that is generally seen as a negative here). But they do need a big push in the highest notes. I have a D and a G and like them a lot.

They are tunable, but need quite a bit of playing into tune, so to speak.

[Kypfer]

Megs are not cheaper than Sweetones in my experience

... from the Manufacturer's website, Sweetones are £7.99 (that's pounds sterling), Meg's are £4.99 ... as usual, shopping around will provide alternative prices

The Meg is marketed as a "more economicaly made" version of the Sweetone, there's no indication (that I've seen) that one model is replacing the other.

[AvienMael]

Megs are not cheaper than Sweetones in my experience

... from the Manufacturer's website, Sweetones are £7.99 (that's pounds sterling), Meg's are £4.99 ... as usual, shopping around will provide alternative prices

The Meg is marketed as a "more economicaly made" version of the Sweetone, there's no indication (that I've seen) that one model is replacing the other.

I've paid roughly the same price for each (about $10 USD, always retail, mind you). Honestly, having owned both, I cannot tell the difference between them aside from the name. There literally is NO difference what-so-ever in the construction of these two whistles, nor is there any difference in how they sound or play in my hands. For the company to be referring to the Meg as more econically made, I have no idea how they could be qualifying this statement unless they are defining "more economically made" as using it to refer to their left-over, over-stock... maybe because they cost more to produce now than they did before (?). I have compared these whistles side by side, I have swapped the heads around - no difference. They are the same whistle. What I have noticed is that Megs seem to be becoming scarcer, usually found as the last remnants of display cards in shops where they have been collecting dust for some time, while Sweetones seem to be more prolific, shinier, and look newer. But then, this could also be owing to some change in how they are being distributed in the US, I suppose. Either way, if you are paying more for a Sweetone because some bit of marketing somewhere states it's better than a Meg in some way, then you are getting ripped off (IMHO).

There is also a slightly cheaper (depending on where it's being sold and by whom) version of this same whistle available under the "Woodstock" name. Again, as far as I can tell (and I have looked them over pretty carefully), it's the same whistle... identical in every way other than color, although I have never played one.

[Kypfer]

defining "more economically made"

... directly from Clarke's web-site "The introduction of the Meg is a result of combining, the design of our popular Sweetone range, with budget raw materials and modified production process.
The tonal characteristics, although slightly different from those of the Sweetone, still achieve the feel and quality of the famous Clarke sound."

Comparing my "C" Sweetone to my "D" Meg, the Meg appears to be made of (slightly) thinner metal and the logo is painted rather than engraved.

[MTGuru]

I always assumed, based on nothing at all, that the Meg is simply an offshored copy of the Sweetone. Made in China or wherever, as a lower cost alternative for bulk purchase, classroom use, etc. Anyone selling it at the same price as the Sweetone would be playing ... *ahem* ... unfair.

I've seen Waltons whistles, e.g. LBWs, in bulk from Musician's Friend at around $4 US. All things being equal, in these cases I'd favor the quixotic notion of supporting our original domestic industries when possible. Though honestly, I've no idea if Waltons are actually Irish made.

[Kypfer]

I've no idea if Waltons are actually Irish made

... my Waltons Mellow D has "Made in Ireland by Waltons, North Frederick Street, Dublin 1" written on the label, the box for my "Irish Black Whistle" has a similar detail on it, though not on the whistle itself.

[AvienMael]

The logo is painted on a Sweetone D as well. MTGuru may be on to something with the offshore manufacturing. Honestly, if you compare two D whistles, you won't find any detectable differences other than the usual slight differences in playing characteristics that can be found between any two whistles of the same manufacturer coming from the same box, card, lot, batch, or what have you. Other than that, the paint job on the Sweetone had better come with a lifetime guarantee if it costs an extra three pounds.

[maki]

A little Shaw high D arrived today. It has joined my Clarke as my favorites just behind the WD Sweet. I have tried lots of whistles in the past year, but the conical ones are the ones that stay. I'm not sure why I love them so much.

Deb

Here's another conical bore whistle;
Pipe Makers Union Carbony Pennywhistle in D Carbon Fiber Whistle
And here is the related discussions;

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=54937
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=53419

The Carbony website is here: http://www.carbony.com/index.htm