Thanks for those links! I am looking forward to exercisizing my right to free speach and posting MY views on their "Speak Out" forums. Unfortunately, they are down at the moment. Bwhahahahahahhaa!!!!!! COWARDS!On 2003-02-20 17:33, touw wrote:
Next week, I am going to be participating in the campaigns by <a href="http://www.moveon.org">MoveOn</a> and <a href="http://www.truemajority.org">TrueMajority</a> from my house(really nowhere to march in West Virginia), and I encourage EVERYBODY else to do the same thing.
As long as there are no standard rules NOT to post political messages, and as long as everybody else is posting OT messages of every other kind, I will post political messages as I see fit.
A brief word on political topics
-
Zubivka
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:00 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Sol-3, .fr/bzh/mesquer
At least your exorcircumsizing your lungs, here... :roll:On 2003-02-20 17:48, TubeDude wrote:
Thanks for those links! I am looking forward to exercisizing my right to free speach and posting MY views on their "Speak Out" forums. Unfortunately, they are down at the moment. Bwhahahahahahhaa!!!!!! COWARDS!
I've been on the board for maybe
five years and yes I've seen my
share of flaming. But the fact is
that we seem to deal with political
discussions pretty well, generally.
as we did with the one we just had.
So I don't think the facts bear
out the idea that these discussions
are a flame war waiting
to happen--though of course
there are risks in discussing
anything.
No, the place where we go off
the rails is about whistles.
I don't know if anybody here
remembers the brawl that took
place over pinky placement, which
ended with the thread being
sealed. Also 'should we spend
more time talking about music
or continue all this stuff
about whistle brands?' was
sealed too, I think. People have
come to virtual brawls over
whistle reviews, too.
Nasty threads about whistle
makers have led to real trouble.
It's
been whistles and music
that lead to flaming; also
weird, creepy posts, or
outright attacks, coming out
of the blue when nobody
would expect one.
I can
think of one political thread
that went wrong, because it
started with a petition, but generally
if the board handled all topics
as it has political discussions,
there would have been a lot
less flaming. Also I confess
that I am a bit uneasy with
the idea that we should curtail
discussion because of what
might happen. Surely what matters
most is what does happen, and
that is pretty pacific when it
comes to political stuff, in my
memory anyhow. The
weird stuff today happened
on the flute forum, in
a thread concerning hydrometers.
I think we can do this OK, because
we generally seem to do it OK.
There really are a lot of decent
and mature people here. Obviously those
who don't like political threads
needn't read them. I
have never once looked at
'Everybody on the board is
a cutie pie'--it's easy, you
just don't press the button.
We tolerate all sorts of
OT threads, some of them
going on for months.
Also I think this sort of thing
is the price of community--we
are a community, in fact. As long as
people are being reasonably
cordial, and the issue is one
that any real community would be expected
to discuss, well, I think it's
best to have the discussion.
The implicit idea that people can't
talk or disagree about stuff like this
without going off the rails
doesn't seem to me so healthy--
also I fear the self-actualizing
prophesy--and, as mentioned
above, what I've seen on the board
gives me reason to disbelieve it.
Also the idea (which has been
expressed in the past) that a thread
like this happening somewhere
on the board is very potent,
a menace, a bit like the
wogs invading the neighborhood,
an affront to lots of people,
who can barely restrain themselves
from verbal violence, is sad.
I don't believe that about
you'all, of all people.
If the fact that a discussion about
a pressing current issue is
happening somewhere on this
board is ruining people's day, I feel less
hopeful about our democracy.
We tolerate much longer and less
cordial OT threads: what's so
obnoxious about these?
That said, I'm not a moderator,
thank heaven. While I don't
share this uneasiness, the fact
that moderators are uneasy
matters to me. Someone must
moderate, we are blessed with
good ones, and I don't expect
to always see things as
they do. I err on the side
of respecting their concerns,
even in this rare case
where I don't share them. Best
five years and yes I've seen my
share of flaming. But the fact is
that we seem to deal with political
discussions pretty well, generally.
as we did with the one we just had.
So I don't think the facts bear
out the idea that these discussions
are a flame war waiting
to happen--though of course
there are risks in discussing
anything.
No, the place where we go off
the rails is about whistles.
I don't know if anybody here
remembers the brawl that took
place over pinky placement, which
ended with the thread being
sealed. Also 'should we spend
more time talking about music
or continue all this stuff
about whistle brands?' was
sealed too, I think. People have
come to virtual brawls over
whistle reviews, too.
Nasty threads about whistle
makers have led to real trouble.
It's
been whistles and music
that lead to flaming; also
weird, creepy posts, or
outright attacks, coming out
of the blue when nobody
would expect one.
I can
think of one political thread
that went wrong, because it
started with a petition, but generally
if the board handled all topics
as it has political discussions,
there would have been a lot
less flaming. Also I confess
that I am a bit uneasy with
the idea that we should curtail
discussion because of what
might happen. Surely what matters
most is what does happen, and
that is pretty pacific when it
comes to political stuff, in my
memory anyhow. The
weird stuff today happened
on the flute forum, in
a thread concerning hydrometers.
I think we can do this OK, because
we generally seem to do it OK.
There really are a lot of decent
and mature people here. Obviously those
who don't like political threads
needn't read them. I
have never once looked at
'Everybody on the board is
a cutie pie'--it's easy, you
just don't press the button.
We tolerate all sorts of
OT threads, some of them
going on for months.
Also I think this sort of thing
is the price of community--we
are a community, in fact. As long as
people are being reasonably
cordial, and the issue is one
that any real community would be expected
to discuss, well, I think it's
best to have the discussion.
The implicit idea that people can't
talk or disagree about stuff like this
without going off the rails
doesn't seem to me so healthy--
also I fear the self-actualizing
prophesy--and, as mentioned
above, what I've seen on the board
gives me reason to disbelieve it.
Also the idea (which has been
expressed in the past) that a thread
like this happening somewhere
on the board is very potent,
a menace, a bit like the
wogs invading the neighborhood,
an affront to lots of people,
who can barely restrain themselves
from verbal violence, is sad.
I don't believe that about
you'all, of all people.
If the fact that a discussion about
a pressing current issue is
happening somewhere on this
board is ruining people's day, I feel less
hopeful about our democracy.
We tolerate much longer and less
cordial OT threads: what's so
obnoxious about these?
That said, I'm not a moderator,
thank heaven. While I don't
share this uneasiness, the fact
that moderators are uneasy
matters to me. Someone must
moderate, we are blessed with
good ones, and I don't expect
to always see things as
they do. I err on the side
of respecting their concerns,
even in this rare case
where I don't share them. Best
-
LeeMarsh
- Posts: 1284
- Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Location: Odenton, MD (Wash-Baltimore Area)
Rich,
Thanks for the warning. Thanks for not making a rule. I would miss people sharing their lives and ideals;but, I wouldn't miss people passing judgement on the lives and ideals of other's. I think that is one of the dangers of political, religious, and moral discussions.
It is one thing to explain why we believe, it is quite another to put down the beliefs of others. The former opens doors, builds understanding, and connects us one to the other. The later closes doors, builds walls and divides us.
In a few weeks, some of us may be directly affected by the events in the world. I hope that any polical, moral, or religious discussion, doesn't prevent people from sharing how they have been affected. When the Towers went down on Sept. 11th. Folks felt free to share their experiences, share the things that laid heavy on their heart. I hope we always have a community with open doors to do that.
The music and love of music ties us together. It give us a deeper understanding that there is more than can be expressed with words. There is more than we can understand with words. I think Rich's warning is that words can corrode those ties if chosen carelessly.
I don't expect any of the folks will make major changes in their political, religious, or moral beliefs because of any discussion here. Not because folks don't have good (or bad) arguments; but, because most of those beliefs are built daily over a life time.
The changes that do occur, will grow out of the common ground that each of us contributes to.
Let's be understanding, compasionate, respectfull, tolerent to one another. Let's demonstrate how to do the good thing, that maybe the good thing done here, can build good things else where. Let's demonstrate how folks from all walks can come together and abide in peace; a solution all want, let's start it here.
Music bind's us to the human condition, enables us to share on a level that crosses, geographic, political, religious, economic, and social boundries. Perhaps energy spent more on building the music, than building a convincing argument, will be more enlightning. The platform here for speech wasn't built on a politcal, religious, or moral belief; the platform's foundation is the music we share.
I find that when I need to share whats on my heart, it is usually shared more fully through music. Sometimes enjoyment isn't just laughter and warmth; somtimes it's the simple release of that which is pent up inside; the stuff inside that find wings only through the music.
_________________
Enjoy Your Music,<br><br><b>Lee Marsh</b><br>
From Harper's Mill, MD.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2003-02-20 22:09 ]</font>
Thanks for the warning. Thanks for not making a rule. I would miss people sharing their lives and ideals;but, I wouldn't miss people passing judgement on the lives and ideals of other's. I think that is one of the dangers of political, religious, and moral discussions.
It is one thing to explain why we believe, it is quite another to put down the beliefs of others. The former opens doors, builds understanding, and connects us one to the other. The later closes doors, builds walls and divides us.
In a few weeks, some of us may be directly affected by the events in the world. I hope that any polical, moral, or religious discussion, doesn't prevent people from sharing how they have been affected. When the Towers went down on Sept. 11th. Folks felt free to share their experiences, share the things that laid heavy on their heart. I hope we always have a community with open doors to do that.
The music and love of music ties us together. It give us a deeper understanding that there is more than can be expressed with words. There is more than we can understand with words. I think Rich's warning is that words can corrode those ties if chosen carelessly.
I don't expect any of the folks will make major changes in their political, religious, or moral beliefs because of any discussion here. Not because folks don't have good (or bad) arguments; but, because most of those beliefs are built daily over a life time.
The changes that do occur, will grow out of the common ground that each of us contributes to.
Let's be understanding, compasionate, respectfull, tolerent to one another. Let's demonstrate how to do the good thing, that maybe the good thing done here, can build good things else where. Let's demonstrate how folks from all walks can come together and abide in peace; a solution all want, let's start it here.
Music bind's us to the human condition, enables us to share on a level that crosses, geographic, political, religious, economic, and social boundries. Perhaps energy spent more on building the music, than building a convincing argument, will be more enlightning. The platform here for speech wasn't built on a politcal, religious, or moral belief; the platform's foundation is the music we share.
I find that when I need to share whats on my heart, it is usually shared more fully through music. Sometimes enjoyment isn't just laughter and warmth; somtimes it's the simple release of that which is pent up inside; the stuff inside that find wings only through the music.
_________________
Enjoy Your Music,<br><br><b>Lee Marsh</b><br>From Harper's Mill, MD.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2003-02-20 22:09 ]</font>
I agree that 'words chosen carelessly
can corrode the ties that bind
people together.' But that isn't
happening on the political threads.
This one just ended with an
international group hug,
people are closer than
they were before. The same thing
happened on the last one, and
the one before that...
I don't know if people come here
to get away from politics, as
Rich suggests, but they are hardly
deluged with it, nor have the
discussions been gratuitous.
People may come here to get
away from all sorts of things
that, they often find, happen here.
The idea that such threads
lead to vehemence and
anger isn't borne out by what's
happening or been happening.
There has been no flame war,
not even close--at least not
about politics. Today hydrometers,
were another story, sadly.
Pinky placement is incendiary.
Honestly I'm baffled.
Why are we fixing what's
working? What's the problem?
can corrode the ties that bind
people together.' But that isn't
happening on the political threads.
This one just ended with an
international group hug,
people are closer than
they were before. The same thing
happened on the last one, and
the one before that...
I don't know if people come here
to get away from politics, as
Rich suggests, but they are hardly
deluged with it, nor have the
discussions been gratuitous.
People may come here to get
away from all sorts of things
that, they often find, happen here.
The idea that such threads
lead to vehemence and
anger isn't borne out by what's
happening or been happening.
There has been no flame war,
not even close--at least not
about politics. Today hydrometers,
were another story, sadly.
Pinky placement is incendiary.
Honestly I'm baffled.
Why are we fixing what's
working? What's the problem?
-
Jerry Freeman
- Posts: 6074
- Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Location: Now playing in Northeastern Connecticut
- Contact:
Jim, et al.,
If I might be so presumptious as to try to divine Rich's reasoning,
It may just be that he's trying to gently coax the board away from tendencies that play into flame wars, by reminding us from time to time to remember to be civil. Although they didn't degenerate into flame wars, there were some pretty nasty posts in the recent political strings.
Perhaps getting a friendly reminder from time to time will help keep us away from flaming each other regardless of whether the topics are whistle related or not.
I think many underestimate the amount of real pain hostile posts can cause those they're directed at. Even uninvolved readers have said it was painful to read some of the unkind remarks that were being thrown around.
I agree with Zoob that we don't want to be so fussy as to avoid all discussion that might provoke controversy. However, I do think there's a healthy amount of debate and there's a point where it has outlived its value, and I think Rich has done a good job in letting things go on their own for about the right length and then reminding everyone again that we need to be careful how we treat each other on the board.
Best wishes,
Jerry
P.S. As I've said several times elsewhere, that was a terrific discussion, even notwithstanding the comments I've made here.
If I might be so presumptious as to try to divine Rich's reasoning,
It may just be that he's trying to gently coax the board away from tendencies that play into flame wars, by reminding us from time to time to remember to be civil. Although they didn't degenerate into flame wars, there were some pretty nasty posts in the recent political strings.
Perhaps getting a friendly reminder from time to time will help keep us away from flaming each other regardless of whether the topics are whistle related or not.
I think many underestimate the amount of real pain hostile posts can cause those they're directed at. Even uninvolved readers have said it was painful to read some of the unkind remarks that were being thrown around.
I agree with Zoob that we don't want to be so fussy as to avoid all discussion that might provoke controversy. However, I do think there's a healthy amount of debate and there's a point where it has outlived its value, and I think Rich has done a good job in letting things go on their own for about the right length and then reminding everyone again that we need to be careful how we treat each other on the board.
Best wishes,
Jerry
P.S. As I've said several times elsewhere, that was a terrific discussion, even notwithstanding the comments I've made here.
-
Chuck_Clark
- Posts: 2213
- Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:00 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Illinois, last time I looked
Its really quite simple. In his role as moderator and board owner, Rich has asked us to chill out with the political threads. While most of us feel that reasonable adults can act that way when discussing sensitive subjects, out of respect for Rich and his viewpoint we have agreed to comply.On 2003-02-20 19:45, touw wrote:
I must be rather dense...or something...because I....don't quite understand what some people are talking about. I'm not sure I'd want to, LOL.
Then again, I haven't even been here a month...
As you said, you are a newcomer and weren't even a participant in the two now abandoned political threads, which is why I don't understand what seemed to be a defiant tone in your previous post in this thread (see previous page).
Some folks just can't kick the habit.On 2003-02-21 02:56, Walden wrote:
Hmm... even the thread about easing up on political issues is turning into a forum for political grumbling.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least known--Montaigne
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light
--Plato
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light
--Plato
-
Wombat
- Posts: 7105
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Location: Probably Evanston, possibly Wollongong
Remember that occasion recently when someone said 'Please DON'T reply on this thread, if you've got something to say send me a PM'? It got 17 replies and stayed near the top of page one for two days. Unbelievable.On 2003-02-21 03:16, blackhawk wrote:Some folks just can't kick the habit.On 2003-02-21 02:56, Walden wrote:
Hmm... even the thread about easing up on political issues is turning into a forum for political grumbling.
The thread was petering out on its
own, as these threads generally have,
and needed no intervention to
prevent us from turning into
wild beasts. Rich's remark that he has the
impression 'it's a flamewar waiting
to happen (if it hasn't happened
already)' creates the appearance
that his message was
written without reading closely
the threads he is trying to
discourage. My own impression
is that that may partly explain
this thread.
As to why we are going on,
this is how we go off
the rails. You take some potentially
volatile topic with which people
are dealing well enough and
you inject the idea that
they shouldn't talk about that
sort of thing here. The combination,
(especially in the same thread),
leads to the problem.
Well, let's obey the moderators.
They are very good moderators,
in fact. Off to the university to corrupt
the youth. Hey, isn't there
a hornpipe by that name? Best to all
own, as these threads generally have,
and needed no intervention to
prevent us from turning into
wild beasts. Rich's remark that he has the
impression 'it's a flamewar waiting
to happen (if it hasn't happened
already)' creates the appearance
that his message was
written without reading closely
the threads he is trying to
discourage. My own impression
is that that may partly explain
this thread.
As to why we are going on,
this is how we go off
the rails. You take some potentially
volatile topic with which people
are dealing well enough and
you inject the idea that
they shouldn't talk about that
sort of thing here. The combination,
(especially in the same thread),
leads to the problem.
Well, let's obey the moderators.
They are very good moderators,
in fact. Off to the university to corrupt
the youth. Hey, isn't there
a hornpipe by that name? Best to all
-
goesto11
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 6:00 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Chicago, IL
Lee Marsh wrote:
Lee, I agree with this statement. However, I don't think it is limited to the "sensitive" subjects. I learned this lesson the hard way. I learned that often it is the WAY that you say things that matters.
For example, if I don't enjoy listening to a particular band, I may wish to share that view with others. If I say "That band stinks", it is an objective statement that is saying that not only do I not like them, but nobody should like them, so if you like them, you are wrong.
You could express the same thought by saying "I don't enjoy their music" or "Their music doesn't appeal to me". These are personal statements that are subjective. You are not saying that if someone disagrees with you then they are wrong.
John Mac
It is one thing to explain why we believe, it is quite another to put down the beliefs of others. The former opens doors, builds understanding, and connects us one to the other. The later closes doors, builds walls and divides us.
Lee, I agree with this statement. However, I don't think it is limited to the "sensitive" subjects. I learned this lesson the hard way. I learned that often it is the WAY that you say things that matters.
For example, if I don't enjoy listening to a particular band, I may wish to share that view with others. If I say "That band stinks", it is an objective statement that is saying that not only do I not like them, but nobody should like them, so if you like them, you are wrong.
You could express the same thought by saying "I don't enjoy their music" or "Their music doesn't appeal to me". These are personal statements that are subjective. You are not saying that if someone disagrees with you then they are wrong.
John Mac
-
Walden
- Chiffmaster General
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- antispam: No
- Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
- Contact:
When it comes to religion, I think, rather I know, that there are some groups whose sincere belief is that it is their primary duty, and in fact the meaning of life itself, to go out, and use every means possible to turn people to their religion. I do not hold to that belief, nor am I particularly fond of the ulterior motives implicit in such an attitude (though I do believe there is a right and a wrong, a true and a false, and will say so). But to these people, it would be religious suppression of high order (at least they would perceive it as such) to ask that they not put down the beliefs of others.
The same is true of many political idealogues, whether right or left wing, or even so-called moderate. "It's my way or no way," is the rule of the game. Not many will say this, but it shines through in attitudes and in the intolerance shown to people whose equally deep-held beliefs differ from theirs.
The same is true of many political idealogues, whether right or left wing, or even so-called moderate. "It's my way or no way," is the rule of the game. Not many will say this, but it shines through in attitudes and in the intolerance shown to people whose equally deep-held beliefs differ from theirs.
Reasonable person
Walden
Walden
-
Doc Jones
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What?! No more politics?!
Well then I guess C&F will just miss out on getting the scoop on my upcoming bid for the presidency!
Guess I'll have to go talk to Larry King, snort, harumph.
Doc
Well then I guess C&F will just miss out on getting the scoop on my upcoming bid for the presidency!
Guess I'll have to go talk to Larry King, snort, harumph.
Doc
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