What exactly is good tone?

[Jayhawk]

I'm lucky to have a nice 30 to 40 minute bus ride to and from work each day which allows me to listen to a lot of great ITM flute CDs. All the Wooden flute Obsession CDs, lots of individual CDs and old LPs turned digital by some fine folks on this board. I've been doing this for years, and rarely listen to anything other than flute CDs on the bus (this makes my wife very happy since she doens't have to listen to them anymore at home...she says its bad enough to have to listen to me all the time ).

Anyway, I've been thinking about tone for several weeks now...not that I haven't thought of it before, but really listening trying to determine if there is such a thing as good tone.

There have been posts on this board where people have said someone's tone sounds like they're new, too fuzzy, too clear, etc. There seems to be the idea that there is such a thing as good tone out there - something we all should be aiming towards.

However, after listening through my entire collection twice now while focusing primarily on tone and not general playing ability...boy, tone is all over the place. There are players whose tones I really like, some I don't like, but one thing they are not is consistent in their tone. Pure, fuzzy, reedy, clear...its all over the place.

So I ask, is there really such a thing as good tone? Or, are we simply hearing the gestalt of a player and mixing tone in with general playing ability when we judge most player's tone?

Eric

[Denny]

must be a day for slippery slopes & cans of worms....

Cris Norman and Matt Molloy both (yeah, IMO) have great tone.
Don't sound anything like each other though...

[Cathy Wilde]

Hmm. I think the gestalt thing might be part of it, but not all of it -- because there's certainly bad tone! I've heard some players who have pretty good technical skills and rhythm, etc. but their tone is so wretched it's kind of painful.

On the other hand, I've also heard plenty of players with lovely tone but whose rhythm and phrasing and technique just scream "WRONG FOR THIS MUSIC (aka "classical")!"* But at least these efforts don't make me want to weep.

To me, tone is relative to the overall impression. If it detracts from the the tune or performance, it's not good; if it fits the music or adds to it, it is. And if you were to think of your flute as a fiddle or a set of pipes it'd be REALLY easy to recognize the importance of decent tone!

Anyway, there comes a point in a thinking player's development where he or she realizes this and works on achieving the sort of tone that works with his or her personal style to "deliver a quality musical experience (or at least doesn't detract from it!)."

So in other words, it's about the "whole package," and the successful players realize this.

As for specific preferences about what makes good tone quality, that's probably personal opinion. But you should always, always, always, be conscious of your tone because IMO, bad tone will do more damage to a tune than good tone (even with slightly wobbly technique) will.

*speaking from an Irish-flute perspective.

[LorenzoFlute]

My opinion is that there's a difference between a good tone and a tone we like. The first it objective, the second subjective.
It is similar as when we give our opinion about a player: even if he has an amazing tecnique (and nobody can say he doesn't) his style may not be our personal preference. In this case though we might like somebody's playing even if the technique is not perfect (ah, one of the good things of folk music!). But with tone it is at least very unlikely that we like somebody's even if it isn't a good one...
Hope this makes sense to you

Cross posted with Cathy Wilde...

[Cathy Wilde]

Den! Do you have a hen?! (or ten?!)

[Clarinetcat]

There seems to be the idea that there is such a thing as good tone out there - something we all should be aiming towards.


So I ask, is there really such a thing as good tone?

Yes, there is such a thing as good tone, and it is completely subjective.


You should be aiming toward sounding however YOU want to sound.

[Jayhawk]

Lorenzo - that makes perfect sense.

Cathy - I really like this:

"To me, tone is relative to the overall impression. If it detracts from the the tune or performance, it's not good; if it fits the music or adds to it, it is."

But this really confuses me:

"And if you were to think of your flute as a fiddle or a set of pipes it'd be REALLY easy to recognize the importance of decent tone!"

I think if I thought of my flute as a fiddle or set of pipes I'd need a med check!

Seriously though, Conal O'Grada on Top of the Croom is the perfect example of my personal tonal confusion. I love the sound of this CD, but I'd say I don't really like the tone. The playing's grand, the style fun and perfect for the tunes, but the tone doesn't do it for me...yet he's 1,000 times the player I'll ever be.

I simply find this interesting, and enjoying hearing other's opinions on this issue. At one point I would have said so and so's tone is ideal (e.g., Malloy or Joe Skelton), but now I'm just not sure there is an ideal tone. Lorenzo's statement that there is good tone and tone we like is a nice observation.

Eric

[Cathy Wilde]

Sorry about that -- what I mean is, have you ever heard a piper who might have all the technique but his reed's screwed up or his pipes sound honky or what have you, and it diminishes the entire experience for everyone? Or a fiddler who's got that thin, squeaky-squawky tone and how it just sort of grates on you after a while? I think we flute players sometimes don't pay as much attention to our tone because bad tone in Flute Land doesn't seem to be quite as ... well, painful. Bad flute tone doesn't run people out of the room or get you shot at or something. It's almost like breathy windy wobbly wishy-washy sound seems to be OK with flutes or something. But if you were to have that kind of approach on your fiddle .... ?!

Oi, I'd kill to sound like Conal O Grada.*
Then again I wouldn't mind sounding like your man Turlach, either. I want it all!
But hey ... why not? Being able to vary your tone to suit the tune or mood is useful, too! (John Skelton's brilliant at this; a lot of the good flute players are)

*I'm inclined to argue that part of what makes Conal's versions of those tunes sine qua non *IS* his tone. It's, like you say, part of the gestalt. Me, I play the same tunes at the same tempo and aim for the same punch on the same kind of flute, and because of my tone I just sound like ... me.

[radcliff]

Clément Dufour (winner of the 7th Jean-Pierre-Rampal Flute Competition - 2005)
he is impressive...

considering the ITM field, is really hard to answer to your question.
"the good tone" is something subjective as well as ethical values are!
mostly depending by the historical contest and the different community.
We can start now argue what is a "good tone" for us, between us:
but this will never last forever.
Considering the development of the meaning of "having a good tone" in classical music
may help to understand the focus of our discussion.
Also, the Bohem flutes improved the 1900 flute player tone respect the old conical flutes,
actually we prefer the conical flute because the have a lovely tone....much more better than the bohem ones...

[Jayhawk]

Cathy...now I understand. That makes perfect sense.

BTW, I meant John Skelton...not sure why I called him Joe.

Sounding like Turlach wouldn't be a bad thing at all , but recently every time I hear him he sounds exactly like a tenor banjo player...which is probably because he seems to prefer to play banjo at sessions these days (not that he comes out as much as any of us would like...darn family and all). He's pretty darn good on the banjo, too, but I prefer him on flute.

Eric

[kkrell]

Tom McElvogue.

[Clarinetcat]

...what I mean is, have you ever heard a piper who might have all the technique but his reed's screwed up or his pipes sound honky or what have you, and it diminishes the entire experience for everyone? Or a fiddler who's got that thin, squeaky-squawky tone and how it just sort of grates on you after a while?

So... what if the piper has a great time and is really enjoying himself?

What if the fiddler likes the way they sound?

What if a young child hears both of them and is amazed by the performance, yet you stand in the corner cringing?


Doesn't good tone all come back to the opinions of the listener?

[LorenzoFlute]

I'll quote myself

with tone it is at least very unlikely that we like somebody's even if it isn't a good one...

"very unlikely" doesn't mean impossible
But I feel that maybe objective good tone on flute has a different meaning than good tone in fiddle (just think of Tommy Peoples!).

[Cathy Wilde]

recently every time I hear him he sounds exactly like a tenor banjo player...which is probably because he seems to prefer to play banjo at sessions these days

Maybe he thinks you're holding up the flute end of things so well that he's free to practice the banjo.

[Cathy Wilde]

So... what if the piper has a great time and is really enjoying himself?

What if the fiddler likes the way they sound?

What if a young child hears both of them and is amazed by the performance, yet you stand in the corner cringing?

Doesn't good tone all come back to the opinions of the listener?

You just talked about fun, personal satisfaction, and childish awe at ... something or other, perhaps the enthusiasm of the performers, perhaps the jigginess of things, perhaps the fact there's another man in the band wrestling with what looks like a spangly crocodile, or that there's someone in a giant plaid blanket banging on a drum covered with stickers.

Or maybe the child does love their tone, who knows?

Nonetheless, that doesn't add up to good tone in my book, at least not the concept of good tone I think we're discussing here.

HOWEVER, as I said above, the qualities that signify good tone are totally up to the opinion of the listener. And the player!