OT: Rolling protest

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:38 am

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... forum=1&12

TubeDude · Post by **TubeDude** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:42 am

On 2003-02-20 09:38, Zubivka wrote:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... forum=1&12

Wow! I agree with Zub. (Zubivka get's the official TubeDude Twinkie of the day award.)
The OT: Rolling protest thread MUST DIE!!

goesto11 · Post by **goesto11** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:48 am

Blackbeer, I first want to thank you for your service to the US. Being fairly young myself, I missed the whole Viet Nam fiasco, and I cannot know what it must have been like and continues to be like. At first I was surprised by your comment about another terrorist attack pointing to the US as its source (I'm paraphrasing), but I guess "Once burned, twice shy" comes to mind.

Jerry, I agree that our different histories affect our perceptions of these events. Interesting point about northern and southern attitudes here in the US in wake of the "war between the states" (they refuse to refer to it as "The Civil War" in the south. One side stoy. I am from CHicago, and my wife and her family are from the south. One day we were at a friend of their's wedding in the south, and I was introduced to the bride's grandmother. She was an old-time southern lady. We talked for about 30 minutes, and she looked at me with the most sincere look and said, "You know, you're very nice for a Northerner."

(I think I may have been the first "Northerner" she had ever talked to) I took it all in good stride, but the mother of the groom almost fainted.

I'm not so sure, though, that I agree that everyone is right. I'm one of those people who think that sometimes there are right answers and wrong answers.

I also have to disagree that all involved will act with good intentions. I trust the French less than they trust me. I think they are holding out so that they can collect payment from saddam for the goods they illegally sold to Iraq over the past 12 years. (Sorry, Zoob) I don't think this is courage, but rather trying to make sure they collect their debts.

I pray that this will have a good ending.

John Mac

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:54 am

On 2003-02-20 10:48, goesto11 wrote:
Interesting point about northern and southern attitudes here in the US in wake of the "war between the states" (they refuse to refer to it as "The Civil War" in the south.

If I am not mistaken, by act of United States Congress, it was officially the War Between the States.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:01 am

Sorry, I sketched I was out ---->

But... John Mac, you say elsewhere you regretted your post. Fine; better still would have been clicking Edit, then Delete this post...

Now "right answers / wrong answers"...
and "I trust the French less than they trust me.* "

What I called the warring Binary thinking : good/evil, them/us.
I'll elaborate : Frenchmen don't care about you personnally. They have widely diverse opinions anyway, so hardly fit in a "French opinion" box. And they won't confuse you with all of US, same they understand US is still a democracy, with multiple opinions and not all of you singing Hail to the chief.

* As for myself, an individual, Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.

And now, even before new provocations, I'll hold to :
:-Ø

:-#

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2003-02-20 12:04 ]

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:44 am

Even though we might not see eye to eye if you think about it you'll see that all of us in this discussion may have even more in common than just our interest in ITRAD. All of us enjoy the edgy, enlightening, intelligent discussion of current events and politics. And all of us care enough to discuss it and to take the time to put together sometimes-lengthy posts.

I've been out of this thing for a day but I just wanted to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. As I stated in Rich's thread I consider all of you friends whether I agree with you or not. If I offended you with anything I've said I apologize.

I join all of you in prayer and hope for peace

- Craig

TubeDude · Post by **TubeDude** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:47 am

After speaking with "reasonable person" Jef via email, I decided to delete my post about the French. Instead, I offer some food for thought. - TD

BATTLE OF LIFE

In the Battle of Life it is not the critic that counts; Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, Or where a doer of a deed could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; Whose face is marred by dust and blood and sweat; Who strives valiantly;
Who errs and comes short again and again;
Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; Who does actually strive to do these deeds; Who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion, Spends himself in a worthy cause; Who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement;
And who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails daring greatly, So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls, Who have tasted neither victory nor defeat."
~ Theodore Roosevelt

[ This Message was edited by: TubeDude on 2003-02-20 13:40 ]

Jeferson · Post by **Jeferson** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:54 am

Um, tubedude, I've emailed you.
Jef

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:59 am

Like Craig, and at Rich's suggestion, I'm outta here, too.

In leaving, though, I also want to compliment those who have posted for their usually successful attempts at restraint, rationality and attention to others' arguments. Unlike some, I don't agree that this was an impending flame war and especially for a political discussion it was remarkably civil.

To paraphrase an American politician (he lost): I've seen flame wars, and this, sir, was no flame war.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:03 pm

On 2003-02-20 10:54, Walden wrote:
On 2003-02-20 10:48, goesto11 wrote:
Interesting point about northern and southern attitudes here in the US in wake of the "war between the states" (they refuse to refer to it as "The Civil War" in the south.
If I am not mistaken, by act of United States Congress, it was officially the War Between the States.

I have also heard older folks call this the "War of the Succession." A few of the oldest can still be heard (privately) to refer to "The War of the Northern Aggression."

I think mainly though, it's known simply as the Civil War or the Rebellion.

Best wishes to all my friends, North, South, East, and West,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:07 pm

On 2003-02-20 10:48, goesto11 wrote:

Jerry, I agree that our different histories affect our perceptions of these events. Interesting point about northern and southern attitudes here in the US in wake of the "war between the states" (they refuse to refer to it as "The Civil War" in the south. One side stoy.

The "war between the states"? Don't you mean "The War of Northern Aggression"? (and this MUST be said with a cultured Southern accent to carry its full impact)

Charlie

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:12 pm

TubeDude - what do you want? You want a flame-war? We could make fun of "America the Beautiful" too, if we wanted. There are enough dark episodes in the american history too (as in the history of every major country). So shall we try to stay polite and keep in mind that this board is dedicated to music and that it needs mutual respect or shall we turn it into a virtual battlefield?
Arrogance and aggressivity are NOT a sign of intelligence. Racism and imperialism are disgusting. If this is going to be an "americans-only"-zone, just let me know so that I can leave.

[ This Message was edited by: claudine on 2003-02-20 13:17 ]

Jeferson · Post by **Jeferson** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:27 pm

After talking to Tubedude off board, it seems that he stands by the tone of his post. So, I'll post my response here.

I think you're going a bit far in that post, TD.
It's inflammatory at any time, let alone at a time like this. Do we really need to post lists of other countries' shortcomings? The attitude and direction these kinds of posts lead us down are not a spot where I'd like to dwell.

Who will post the next list, and dissing which country?

How about we rise above it. Really.

I, too, am done in this thread. Thanks to the bulk of you for posting thoughtfully and passionately.

Jef
PS Where's the crullers?

Edited to compliment TubeDude on his Roosevelt quote. Mighty fine, TubeDude, mighty fine.

[ This Message was edited by: Jeferson on 2003-02-20 14:02 ]

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:56 pm

First of all guys thanks for this remarkable debate. I think what we have over purely political sites is that we know a little bit more about each other in that we also share our music. This is unique. I for one shall miss postilng to this thread. I for one injoyed the emotional roller coaster that this thread has caused me to ride. I for one noticed that no one mentioned my spelling. I for one have know doubt that we can all sit back down at the table and play our songs together. I for one think this was a good thread.

untill next time

Tom

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:13 pm

Wow. This has been an incredible debate. There are a lot of what I consider to be some amazingly insighful and eloquent posts from both sides of the pond. When I originally posted about the protest rolling by I had no idea that it would stir up so much lively discussion. I think it says an awful lot about the quality of the people in this community from all over the world that this could have been done without a big flame war. Instead I feel like it was a lot of good friends sharing their viewpoints on a very sensitive subject and I feel that I have learned a lot about this world event here. I doubt that there are many places where such a debate could have taken place. C&F YES!

-Paul