It's a small point, but. . .

[MTGuru]

not much extrapolation required, the context was given...

on slow tunes in E minor, if the last note is a sustained E

No, it wasn't. E natural minor? E harmonic minor? E melodic minor? E modal minor? The answer depends on which.

[Cubitt]

To one and all - Thanks for playing!

[Nanohedron]

To one and all - Thanks for playing!

Oops....Cubitt just figured out that he created a monster, and he's a little fightened.

[jemtheflute]

Thanks for the direct answer MeaghanEryn. I agree this whole thread would be silly if anyone were seriously trying to promulgate one or other name as superior, more correct than the other, but I don't think we are. Certainly I'm going to stick with my habitual usage and defend it against any implication it is "wrong", but the real point here is Cubitt's OP query as to why the Eb usage is out there, even dominant. I think we are heading towards an answer. I don't think it is about theory or logic or science, just custom and practice.

[Denny]

To one and all - Thanks for playing!

Oops....Cubitt just figured out that he created a monster, and he's a little fightened.

I think he's seen MT's minor rant before

[MTGuru]

I think we are heading towards an answer. I don't think it is about theory or logic or science, just custom and practice.

Yep. And argument from authority is fallacious, because authorities are just as limited as any human by their own temporal experience of custom and practice and preference. And laziness ... wanting to label something one or the other when it's properly either or both.

Now about those whistles ... is it Db or C# ???

[Denny]

if you could C# you could tell that Db is on the left rear

[Nanohedron]

I don't think it is about theory or logic or science, just custom and practice.

That's all it must be. The why of it is lost to my knowing.

Lemmesee: on basic keyed trad flutes everyone in my circle generally refers to (from uppermost) the C key, Bb key, G# key, Fnat key(s), Eb key. Then the C# and (sometimes, "lower") Cnat keys below that if they're there. The upper C key often doesn't even get a designation beyond its letter (and that could be a practical convention in itself, who knows? After all, people tend to know which key I mean when I put it that way). It's a convention I inherited when I took up ITM flutering, and it's never occurred to me to be bothered to see a chaos in it; playing the chunes always seemed more important, and anyway, keys-wise everyone concerned communicates pretty flawlessly so far as that goes. It's apparent to me that key designations in that wise are strictly practical in the physical sense, being only names and nothing more; the putative virtues of hewing to theoretical consistency are off over there, sitting lonely somewhere in the corner. That's a different issue entirely, to me. I see no pressing need to tie it all together into one neat package because, really, there isn't actually a mess in the first place.

You could say we've got enough going on wearing our own jackboots, without fitting into someone else's, too.

[Casey Burns]

This kind of reminds me of the discussion as to whether or not call flute pitched XXX XXX = D (either traditional or modern) C flutes (since C sounds as written) or D flutes (since that is the fundamental key of the instrument). In both cases, you are talking about the same thing.

It may seem strange to some and not to others. I doubt if this is a European vs. American thing. It may simply stem from one's other musical experiences. Thus if you were a fiddle player previously, it would make sense to express these as sharps. If you played sax then it would be flats.

To me the mixing of sharps and flats in describing the keys I make is simply a convention that I use that works for me. So I make Eb, F, G#, Bb and C keys. I could just as well say I make D#, F, Ab, Bb and C keys and I'd be saying the exact thing, except that I might sound a bit confused. I've been saying I make Eb, F, G#, Bb and C keys for my flutes for nearly 30 years now and I am sort of used to it, and see no compelling reason to do otherwise.

Musically I have done other things besides ITM - some of which is modern instrumental composition, not necessarily tonal. In this medium the mixing of sharps and flats is normal and at times practical, if it simplifies a score. I was doing this before flute making - thus maybe that is why I use my "strange" mixture.

Casey

[benhall.1]

It may seem strange to some and not to others. I doubt if this is a European vs. American thing. It may simply stem from one's other musical experiences. Thus if you were a fiddle player previously, it would make sense to express these as sharps.

Huh? Why? I'm a fiddle player. It's an E flat key.

[rama]

i was playing in a band once and during rehearsal i played dsharp, the band leader stopped us and screamed at me for not playing eflat instead. how did he know? i thought i had him fooled. he said it just sounded like dsharp, not eflat.

[talasiga]

To one and all - Thanks for playing!

wait, it's my serve now. my final serve - intended to be my only ace in his thread.

While I accept that it doesn't matter whether you call the same thing a D# or Eb I am serving for the side which says that Eb is the more common reference for the thing.

D# is a note in only 3 of the accepted keys with sharp signatures (D# key signature which I nerdily covered earlier is not one of them - not accepatble).
Eb is a note in ALL six of the accepted keys with flat signatures (these 6 include Cb key signature and so if we exclude that one we are still ahead for Eb).

So thats my ace. Standard key signatures. Eb is 5 or 6 VERSUS D# is 3.

Time for OJ.

[talasiga]

Now about those whistles ... is it Db or C# ???

Well both are accepted key signatures but I would rather refere to it as Db
BECAUSE the C# whistle's scale will have an E# and a B#
whereas the Db whistle's scale will have an F and a C in their place ....

Of course that is nowhere as extreme as this comparison of an unacceptable and an acceptable expression of the same scale:
a D# whistle would have to have E#, F##, B# and C##
whereas
an Eb whistle would have an F, G, C and D in their place

[Sigurthr]

Re: Jem's question about beginning flute books...

My Rubank Elementary Method for Flute book actually has it shown as D# in the fingering charts. (as well as C# key, G# key, and Bb keys)

However, my teacher and I call the key by whatever enharmonic term is used in the key signature/accidental of the piece in reference, so that's anything from "D#" to "Fbb".

[s1m0n]

i was playing in a band once and during rehearsal i played dsharp, the band leader stopped us and screamed at me for not playing eflat instead. how did he know? i thought i had him fooled. he said it just sounded like dsharp, not eflat.

Never trust an ill-tempered bandleader.