It's a small point, but. . .

[jemtheflute]

@ MeaghanEryn - theory aside, what did you first learn to call the key (the widget on the flute) from your teacher(s) as a kid? By which name did/do you and your peers most commonly refer to it?

[jemtheflute]

Before I make my comment, I would like to make known my credentials. I am a self-proclaimed genius and Emporer of the Universe. I carry much weight.

When I learned to play the whistle, without instructor, (I am selectively omniscent), I had to get my head wrapped around the concept that to play an Eb, I needed to change the fingering on the D hole. So, I had to get my tremendous brain synapses to transfer energy and chemicals to think of flats in terms of sharps.

Please do not attempt to worship me or request favors, I'm not in the mood this millenium.

??? There is no 'D hole' on a whistle, save the end of the tube! Presumably you were using your podgy, fragrant, Imporial D finger to half-cover (thus flattening the tone produced by) the E hole.

[mutepointe]

Just checking to see who was paying attention. Jem shall be showered with positive energy today curtosy yours truly.

To play a Bb, I had to think of this note in terms of A#, even if this music was written in flats.

(Any attempt to further correct me will be met with bits and pieces of Bohemian Rhapsody, i.e. Thunderbolts and Lightning very very frightening. I am on some major sinus medications that have kicked in big time.)

[Denny]

Basic Flute Fingering Chart

Pratten Perfected Fingering Chart

Basic Fingering Chart for Flute and Piccolo

[Cubitt]

I find it odd that some here seem to think that calling the D# key by that name represents some kind of scholarly or scientific approach, rather than simply calling the key what it is. Let me again emphasize that what you call it makes absolutely no difference - I'm not trying to change anyone. It just seemed strange to me that in a musical genre dominated by G, D, and A, anyone would think in terms of flats. I've always just naturally thought of it as the D# key and never gave it much thought until I came to this site, where it is almost always referred to as Eb. It's not wrong, it just seems strange to me. I checked my books to see if I was crazy (not a definitive method, I grant ) and found that D# indeed seemed to be the convention.

Call it what you like. I was just curious as to why.

Cheers.

[MarkP]

It just seems odd to me that an instrument used (at least for ITM) in the keys of G, D, A and the relative minors would name a key in its flatted mode rather than the sharp.

it's a small point, but... in O'Neill's 1001 transcriptions of The Dance Music of Ireland there are 449 reels, 365 double jigs and 69 hornpipes, of which 5 reels, 3 jigs and 3 hornpipes have an Eb in O'Neill's attributed key signatures and none have a D#.

Somewhat irrelevant I admit (like the rest of the thread ) as they're just convenient 'key' transcriptions of tunes played in traditional modes. Not my forté, but I think you'd have to be playing in Emaj, F#dor, Bmix or C#min to stumble on any regular occurance of a theoretically implied d# in ITM. Just to emphasise that the earlier comment that tunes in Emin might imply a D# now and again is a misunderstanding of the fact that the taditional mode (natural minor) doesn't have one.

I've heard lots of trad tunes played on transposing flutes/whistles/concertinas/pipes (or on fiddle) pitched at the equivalent of F/Bb, Eb/Ab, Dmin/Gmin, Fmin. Irrelevant for the transposing instrument but the fiddle player might need to think of them that way, if they had any kind of classical training that is (recently sat down for a very promising tune with Dermot Byrne and Flo Blancke only for Brendan Larrisey to walk in and decide to lead everything off in F for the rest of the evening ). I might be wrong, but you'd have to travel a long way to hear the same tunes pitched at the equivalent of B/Emaj.

PS. aren't the accidentals on a D/G melodian also generally considered as Ab, Bb, Eb and F? (I think?).

[Cubitt]

Okay, here's a question for you (and I really don't know the answer): Often, on slow tunes in E minor, if the last note is a sustained E, I will add a D# (or Eb) before coming up to the E to heighten the effect that minor keys seem to have (melancholy or sentimental). If you wrote my variation out, would the extra note be written as a D# accidental or Eb?

[MeaghanEryn]

I haven't been in the ITM world as much as many of you, so my experience with the repertoire isn't as extensive as what some of you have. Most E "minor" tunes are really in E aeolian (aka E natural minor), though I've come across a few with D-sharp (like The Crested Hens [admittedly probably not the most Irish tune out there] and The White Petticoat). In both cases a D-sharp would make more sense than an E-flat. I've never seen an E-flat as an accidental (or, when I have, it would make more sense to write it as a D-sharp), but like I said, my experience with the repertoire is pretty limited so what I say might not have that much weight. It was just an observation.

Jem, in classical flute-speech we usually end up calling it the E-flat key. However, my argument in this case would be that the Boehm flute is meant to be played in several keys, including (particularly in band repertoire) flat keys.

In any case, just let me make known that I find this topic little more than silly, meaningless, fun banter. I'm not totally set on calling it a D-sharp key; in fact you'd probably hear me call it both. I'm just pointing out that, in my opinion, there is a reason to call it that.

[MarkP]

Often, on slow tunes in E minor, if the last note is a sustained E, I will add a D# (or Eb) before coming up to the E to heighten the effect that minor keys seem to have (melancholy or sentimental). If you wrote my variation out, would the extra note be written as a D# accidental or Eb?

If you had to write it out then I'm sure you'd write it as a D#, whether the variation would be fitting in the mode is another question.

Most E "minor" tunes are really in E aeolian (aka E natural minor)

E dorian? (C#)

PS. I'm not an expert in either classical or ITM

[Denny]

It just seemed strange to me that in a musical genre dominated by G, D, and A, anyone would think in terms of flats. ~~~ I was just curious as to why.

how's about
It had a name long before it was adopted by the G, D and A crowd from the F, Bb, and Eb crowd.

[MTGuru]

If you wrote my variation out, would the extra note be written as a D# accidental or Eb?

Again, it depends entirely on context. By itself, what you're describing is essentially a chromatic ornament or alteration of the E, and best described as an Eb (flatted E) which is then raised to E. But if you're playing it to achieve a harmonic minor or melodic minor tonality in the context of the melody, then the semitone below E is the leading tone of the scale and best described as D#.

In a notational context, when you write 2 adjacent notes a semitone apart and one is an accidental, there's a tendency to notate them when possible as 2 different letter name notes on different staff lines. Simply because, visually, it makes the pitch difference easier to see. This is purely pragmatic and has nothing to do with any music theoretical considerations. To extrapolate from that to the name of a key is a mistake.

It's like asking if your left hand is to the left of your right hand or your right hand is to the right of your left hand. It's not an either/or choice. Without context, the answer is "either" or "both" - or more succcinctly: "Huh??"

[Nanohedron]

Even on my Eb flute I still call that little thingum the "Eb key". Am I going to jail?

[Denny]

of course ya are....

however the offense is the use of the technical term thingum in a thread given to things that do not matter.

[MarkP]

not much extrapolation required, the context was given...

on slow tunes in E minor, if the last note is a sustained E

[Nanohedron]

I once carelessly called the Eb flute's E key "the Eb key" in front of a professional piano player. He left bloody fistfuls of his own hair all over the place. Man, that was fun.