It's a small point, but. . .

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talasiga
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by talasiga »

Cubitt wrote:Casey, I wonder that you think people give a tinker's cuss as to whether a note is flat or sharp - who cares? Also, since a flat sign means a half-step lower, the less academically trained among us may have to think for a second to realize that E is higher than D.

Finally, since flats are all but unknown in ITM, I find the preference to calling the D# key Eb nothing short of baffling.

I think you're arguing over nothing really. I think the whole thing is accurately and pretty comprehensively covered in MT Guru's first post in this thread at page 1 of it.

If I may indulge in conversation about this - looking at D and E and what lies between them.
Lets play D#/Eb on a keyless flute. Difficult but can be done. How many of you in half holing the E vent, the first tone hole, think of it as flatting the E as opposed to sharping the D?
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by Cubitt »

talasiga wrote:I think you're arguing over nothing really. I think the whole thing is accurately and pretty comprehensively covered in MT Guru's first post in this thread at page 1 of it.
Of course I'm arguing over nothing - I said so in the subject line. I really didn't know what kind of responses I'd get, but it's kind of funny to see folks trying to actually justify mislabeling the key. As far as being covered comprehensively, I think I did that when I went back and found that three highly respected authorities on flute agree that the D# key is the D# key. Nothing earth-shattering and it doesn't change anything or otherwise grace humanity, but it is what it is. I rest my case. :P
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by jemtheflute »

Highly respected authorities they may be, and they may be representative of a long term effort to be 'more scientific' about it. But bottom line is that they're out of step with the most widespread and traditional (in all musical genres) usage. And neither term can legitimately be considered exclusively 'right' or 'wrong' - just normal/more common etc. or the converse. Both are entirely accurate and legitimate. But one (IME) is much more often used than the other amongst the generality of folk who have any occasion to discuss such things at all.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

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jemtheflute wrote:Highly respected authorities they may be, and they may be representative of a long term effort to be 'more scientific' about it. But bottom line is that they're out of step with the most widespread and traditional (in all musical genres) usage. And neither term can legitimately be considered exclusively 'right' or 'wrong' - just normal/more common etc. or the converse. Both are entirely accurate and legitimate. But one (IME) is much more often used than the other amongst the generality of folk who have any occasion to discuss such things at all.
I won't argue that point, if it is true. May I ask your basis for that assertion, Jem? Kincaid was born in the 19th Century - I don't have to tell you about Boehm. What traditional source refers to the D# key on any flute design as Eb?
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by Casey Burns »

There are plenty of traditional music types that use flats and my flutes are used in these, not just ITM.

And Eb being interchangeable with D# I don't see a problem. I just prefer flats to sharps, as I have had more experience playing in flat keys.

Question: if you wrap a D# with enough turns of thread to strangle it, does it become an Eb? What happens if you cork lap it instead?

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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by talasiga »

putting microtonal diffrence between Eb and D# aside for the moment I also agree with jem - neither is absolutely wrong or right.

However you will find a tendency to refer to that interval as Eb for various reasons.

Lets talk of key signatures for a moment. Lets spell the major scale in the same key signature two ways - both correctly.

D# E# F## G# A# B# C## D#+
and
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb+

According to western music theory conventions once you nominate the keynote as D# rather than Eb you are intractably bound to have E# (for F), F# (for G) and C## (for D). Its nerdily theoretically correct but the Eb spelling of the scale is more user friendly.

With some scales (like F# or Gb) you don't have a choice you will always end up with one correct nerdy note but between Eb and D# and also between Bb and A# we have a nice choice leaning towards the former in each pair.


This is doubtless why, although, western music theory nominates both F# and Gb as scales, in my experience it does nominate D# or A# as scales it likes to use.
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microtonal diff.

Post by talasiga »

this is a story but the elements have real possibility.
lets say someone in older times made a microtonal keyed flute that differentiated between D# and Eb and had a key for each. now the mechanism on the D# key was quite inventive and outstanding.
Along come other flute makers who had been making 12 semitone chromatic flutes but they really liked the D# mechanism on the microtonal keyed flute.
They start using the "D# " TYPE (not exact copy of course) of mechanism for their semitone between D and E.
And so they call the key that even tho in their standard chromatic flute it doesn't matter wheteher you think of it as D# or Eb.
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by jemtheflute »

Cubitt wrote:I won't argue that point, if it is true. May I ask your basis for that assertion, Jem? Kincaid was born in the 19th Century - I don't have to tell you about Boehm. What traditional source refers to the D# key on any flute design as Eb?
I don't deny that for some reason professional, organological writers tend to call it "D#". Rockstro does too (I just checked), save when referring also to Quantz's enharmonic Eb key. However, he, like just about everyone else, calls the Bb that, not "A#" and the C natural likewise, not "B#", which logical consistency would suggest. Mind you, those writers are all post-Bohm and likely to have been influenced by his choice of terminology. I've lent my copy of Quantz to Ben and can't check what his usage was for a single-keyed flute prior to his own enharmonic addition.

I have already at least by implication, if not explicitly, cited my basis for my opinion. It is admittedly subjective and is not about citing printed authorities. In My Experience - 30+ years of interacting with all kinds of fluters and talking about our instruments, from a starting point of a few mainstream classical lessons on Bohm flute, I have rarely encountered anyone who refers to it as "the D#" key or who is surprised by references to "the Eb key" in casual conversation. Notwithstanding my own organological reading, that's what I've always known it as. I'm not coming at this from a documented academic angle but a common-place, everyday one where the habitual popular usage may well not be considered "correct" by the academic specialists. Of course, I have no statistical back-up to my subjective recollections/perceptions of my experience.

However, I have also checked in the one beginners' tutor book I have to hand - Arthur Hart's Introduction to the Flute (OUP 1967). Like most tutor books and scale charts, the key is not named as such in the fingering diagrams save as "R4" (some authors prefer to number or letter label the keys independently rather than with finger associations). Hart's only "named" keys on his diagrams are the low C# and C, the G# and the B/Bb pair. Being a Bohm flute book, of course the venting of the R4 key for all fingerings save those requiring it shut is shown in all diagrams from the very beginning, but the first textual mention of it is quite late in the book where the note Eb is introduced and the key is referred to as "the Eb key". [Interestingly (but unsurprisingly!), when introducing Bb Hart also refers to the Bohm R1 alternative fingering as a Bb fingering, not "A#".]

It would be interesting to have a quick survey of other flute Primer books such as A Tune a Day etc. Anyone with any such care to peruse and report????? After all, it's that early exposure as we learn our way around our instrument that is the most influential factor - what our teachers/tutor books used - hence my point about a "traditional" usage.

Maybe this is another transatlantic dichotomy? Perhaps it is a rare instance where the Board Poll facility might usefully be used? How about setting up a poll asking which term people habitually use/have been conditioned to by their teachers and peers/most commonly hear? Make it clear that what the responder might think to be desirable or "correct" (or why) is not the poll choice, but what s/he actually uses as an un-intellectualised default term. Whether it would be worth trying to design into the poll a means for voters to indicate whether they are N. American, British or "Other" might be interesting too, but I'm no poll designer!

As I've already said, I don't think there is a right or wrong here (nor a "row" about it), nor ultimately that it "matters" (save for facility of communication), but it is interesting to see what folk do use and (maybe :boggle: ) why. There's an apparent consensus usage in the world of academic writers, but is that reflected in the everyday world of players? Thus far, at least in Britain, I'd say not.
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by benhall.1 »

jemtheflute wrote:I've lent my copy of Quantz to Ben and can't check what his usage was for a single-keyed flute prior to his own enharmonic addition.
I've had a quick look, Jem. I don't think it helps us. In that book, he doesn't call the single key on a single keyed flute anything at all, by the look of it. By implication, he must have thought of it as a "D#/Eb key" since what he does say about it is that it was a key used for both D# and Eb and that this was incorrect, which is why he added a second key. The implication of what he writes is that the old key was 'out of tune' for both D# and the higher note Eb, being a compromise between the two, and that neither of his two keys corresponds to the old key, because they are tuned correctly to D# and Eb in ascending order of pitch. (Before we get too heavily along this road, though, it is worth remembering that Quantz added the second key not only to tune the D# and Eb 'correctly' but also to add tonal and pitch possibilities to other notes.)
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by yellowhistler »

Why call the note Eb? Because that's what my Korg chromatic tuner calls it! :P
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by mutepointe »

If the world was dominated by academic flutists, would we ever have this great saying, "Don't B#, don't Bb, be natural."?
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

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no :really:
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by MeaghanEryn »

I certainly haven't done the research many of you seem to have done, but just thought I'd throw my two cents out there...

When we call it an E-flat flute (i.e. it plays in the key of E-flat instead of D), then it makes sense to speak in terms of key signatures (E-flat major as opposed to D-sharp major). However, as far as I understand/have experienced, when we use keys on the Irish flute it's usually for accidentals in a key that is fairly close to the easier keys to play on a D instrument (D major/B minor, G major/E minor, and the various modes). Theoretically speaking, D-sharp is more likely to occur as an accidental in these keys (specifically, E minor) than E-flat.
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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

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Re: It's a small point, but. . .

Post by mutepointe »

Before I make my comment, I would like to make known my credentials. I am a self-proclaimed genius and Emporer of the Universe. I carry much weight.

When I learned to play the whistle, without instructor, (I am selectively omniscent), I had to get my head wrapped around the concept that to play an Eb, I needed to change the fingering on the D hole. So, I had to get my tremendous brain synapses to transfer energy and chemicals to think of flats in terms of sharps.

Please do not attempt to worship me or request favors, I'm not in the mood this millenium.
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