Wide bore and narrow bore and session....oh my!!

[Whistle Free or Die]

While perusing Michael Burke's website, I was inundated with terms like narrow bore and wide bore and session.

Just how these terms contribute to the whistles sound?
And how does the sound of brass, aluminum or nickle differ?

Thank you. You all are a great help.
Susan

[ecohawk]

I'll offer my opinion. YMMV.

Generally, wide bore or session whistles are louder and require more air.
Generally, narrow bore whistles are sweeter sounding and may need more breath control.
I own Burke whistles in both categories and can't honestly say the air requirement is significantly different between them. I do fine more expressiveness possible in the narrow bore brass. But my composite session whistle is truly wonderful too.

Some say the they can hear the difference between brass, aluminum and nickel in the same whistle, I can't. They do have a different feel and weight. Brass is heaviest while aluminum is next because it's usually thicker. Nickel is the lightest and some say it is slicker making it hard to hold. I don't experience this. Aluminum is probably the most secure feeling.

I find the biggest difference is between makers, not necessarily materials. Wood does sound different indeed but you didn't ask about that.

If I was choosing only one D whistle from Burke only, I would pick the narrow bore brass. But the aluminum session bore has a huge fan base as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that none of Burke's whistles are going to disappoint you. And they're all high in the eye candy factor as well.

You haven't asked about other makers whistles but there are some really fine whistles out there and some of them are made by members of this very board.

Good luck with your choice.

[kkrell]

If you click on the DETAILS for any of the whistles on Mr. Burke's website, he provides a description as to the characteristics and common usage.

[hans]

Generally speaking:
'Bore' refers to the inner diameter of the tube.
The wider the bore is in relation to the length, the stronger is the fundamental note frequency, with a weakening of the higher harmonic content of the note. I am not talking here about "fuzziness" or "chiffiness" of tone, which has totally different causes, but about the "pure" tone. A narrow bore whistle has stronger higher harmonics, a wide bore whistle has a stronger more flute-like tone. So there is a perceptible difference in tone, purely for acoustic reasons.

And because of the wider bore such whistles can be built to play louder, a they can have a wider wind channel and window. That means also a somewhat greater requirement of air.

[AvienMael]

Hans wrote: "I am not talking here about "fuzziness" or "chiffiness" of tone, which has totally different causes, but about the "pure" tone. A narrow bore whistle has stronger higher harmonics, a wide bore whistle has a stronger more flute-like tone. So there is a perceptible difference in tone, purely for acoustic reasons."

This is not true - it is also going to be somewhat confusing to someone asking such a question. What he is referring to actually relates more to the "voicing" of the whistle head (as determined by it's design, in some cases), and has less to do with bore size. A wider bore does not neccesarily mean that the whistle will be more flute-like or have a purer tone. In fact, of all of my whistles, the ones with the purest, most "flute-like tone" are also the whistles that happen to have the narrowest bores and somewhat thicker walls. However, it is possible (and somewhat common) to voice the whistle head on a wider bore whistle to make the whistle sound softer and "purer"-and this is exactly the case with Burke whistles, all of which have a "purer" tone than most other whistles by other makers, regardless of the bore size. This is one of the characteristics of the Burkes whistles (in general) that appeal most to those who favor them. When we say, "pure," we are talking about a refinement of overall sound - and this happens at the whistle head, not in the bore.

I do hear some minute tonal differences between whistles made from different materials, however, I also have found that there isn't neccessarily any "rule" regarding this either. I believe that the differences some of us hear between whistles of different materials are owing to the way in which the material resonates (or doesn't), and has little to do with what is happening to the sound wave within the whistle itself. A nickel plated whistle, for example, will tend to absorb a little less of the sound wave that a plain brass tube which is slightly thinner (because it isn't plated), and so the result is that it sounds a little brighter to some people. The higher grades of aluminum used in whistle making, because they have an entirely different temper than brass, also tend to sound this way, for the same reason.

Another factor in all of this is wall thickness - that is, the thickness of the tube material. this translates into deeper tone holes (more like a flute - hint, hint ), and can also mean less resonance - but this last part can be further affected by bore size, and the shape of the bore (straight, conical, or stepped), and it definitely has an affect on the design of the whistle head. With the right combination of bore size, wall thickness, and material, along with the proper voicing of the head, it is even possible to produce a metal whistle with a tone that resembles wood.

So in the in the end, there aren't as many hard-fast rules as some people think, because there are a lot of possibilities. When shopping whistles, and with regard to how they sound, you will be better served by paying attention to the maker's description of a whistle, rather than the material they are made from.

[pancelticpiper]

What I find, as a player, is that narrower-bore whistles tend to have an easier "action", that is, they are more nimble in jumping back and forth between the octaves. It's something I really want in a whistle.

Narrower-bore whistles tend to have a sweet, easy upper range. They can pay for that with a weaker (or more quiet) lower range. The notes to test are A and especially B in the 2nd octave and Bottom D and low E in the 1st octave. (Pretty much all whistles have a nice-sounding B in the low octave and E and F# in the 2nd octave. It's when you go down to the lowest notes in the low octave and B in the 2nd octave that the differences in voicing really stand out.)

As a whistle's bore increases (the length remaining about the same) the low range becomes stronger, but the high notes in the 2nd octave become harder to play. High B can become harsh and take a strong blow to sound.

Narrow-bore whistles often have the classic whistle tone, a sweet contained sound with lots of character. Wide-bore whistles tend to have (in my opinion) a cleaner, open, bland tone. People coming from the Irish tradition tend to favour the former, people coming from the orchestral tradition tend to favour the latter.

About the label "flutelike tone", it seems that it means different things to different people. Many people on these boards use the term "flutelike" to describe a tone nearly 180 degrees from the sound of an orchestral flute, or an Irish flute.

Seems that some people have the tone of a recorder, or perhaps a Native American flute, in mind.

[Whistle Free or Die]

AND through the magic of Youtube, I have come across a video by Doc Jones of the Irish Flute Store.

He compares the Burke aluminum, the brass and the composite high D whistles
BUT WAIT.... theres more.....
Also the narrow bore and wide bore.
It is nice to have sound and pictures to all the great words of wisdom that have been posted on this thread.

I have yet to figure out how to cut and paste that link from my Ipad so perhaps someone else can do so.

Thank you all.
Susan

[Feadoggie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_P9GYVKNqQ

Just buy one of each Burke and all your questions will be answered. I did.

Feadoggie

[straycat82]

[$.02]

Don't worry about how loud you are in a session, get a whistle that has characteristics of tone, tuning, etc. that are pleasing to you.

[/$.02]

[MarkP]

Don't worry about how loud you are in a session, get a whistle that has characteristics of tone, tuning, etc. that are pleasing to you.

oh how true, brash whistles in sessions, aaargh

[hans]

Hans wrote: "I am not talking here about "fuzziness" or "chiffiness" of tone, which has totally different causes, but about the "pure" tone. A narrow bore whistle has stronger higher harmonics, a wide bore whistle has a stronger more flute-like tone. So there is a perceptible difference in tone, purely for acoustic reasons."

This is not true - it is also going to be somewhat confusing to someone asking such a question. What he is referring to actually relates more to the "voicing" of the whistle head (as determined by it's design, in some cases), and has less to do with bore size. A wider bore does not neccesarily mean that the whistle will be more flute-like or have a purer tone. ....

No, I was specifically not talking about the voicing, but just about the influence of the bore diameter on the tone. Voicing can make a whistle sound more "pure" or more "edgy" or "chiffy". The voicing being equal, a narrower bore will introduce a stronger harmonics element to the tone, a wider bore less so, favouring the fundamental with a bit weaker harmonics content in the tone. These are subtle but perceptible differences. You can hear them in Doc's comparisons (from 6min on in his utube clip), even though the sound quality does not do justice to the whistles.

By flute-like I meant a tone favouring the fundamental frequency, as flutes generally do, never mind if they are played "edgy", "reedy", or more "pure" or "classical". Of course a whistle can never sound like a flute. Nor like a recorder, which employs very different voicing.

I do agree with the last sentence in the quote above. Wider or narrower bore is just one factor in the overall tone, and much depends on the voicing, i.e. windway, window and tone hole geometry. And material has some influence in the subtleties of these geometries, like how sharp edges are, or how easily they can be softened.

[pancelticpiper]

The voicing being equal, a narrower bore will introduce a stronger harmonics element to the tone, a wider bore less so, favouring the fundamental with a bit weaker harmonics content in the tone.

Yes Hans this is what I was trying to say, but you said it much better.

Over and over through the years I've noticed that orchestral/classical/"legit" musicians tend to favour the latter, that is, whistles with a strong fundamental and less higher harmonics. They also, if they play whistles themsleves, tend to like the bigger "break" between octaves that a bigger bore gives.

Myself, I prefer the way the narrow-bore Burke D plays. I have a sesson-bore one which plays great, don't get me wrong, but I only use it at sessions where I need a bit more volume. My favourite D, a c1980 Feadog, is very quiet and is useless at sessions.

[R Small]

To my ears and way of thinking "flutelike" equals: spread, fat, puffy (but not airy), soft (but not necessarily quiet), etc. "Reedy" equals: focused, concentrated, penetrating, maybe even piercing on the high notes (not necessarily a bad thing). Hans' whistles are a good example of "flutelike". WD Sweet is a good example of "reedy". Both are great whistles with very different sounds. Variety is the spice of life.

[AvienMael]

In my own opinion, material definitely plays a part in tone, and in some whistle examples, it defines it. Yet we can make a whistle, a recorder, and a flute all from the same piece of timber, and each will sound different from the others - even if the bore is of a similar design. Can a whistle sound like a flute? I think so - my old Copeland brass D does - and a lot of people agree with me. It also happens to sound nothing like my (much later model) nickel D at all, aside from the hallmark Copeland volume, and the nickel D really doesn't sound like a flute. The difference here isn't the bore (which is the same), nor is it the material. It's the overall design - and if you place the two side by side, they are quite visibly not the same.

But in terms of defining this quality, "Flute-like," think of it this way: For a whistle to truly sound flute-like, it has to resonate a certain way - that's the difference that separates it from others - it's not the "tone" - it's the timbre.

[UncleChuck]

To my ears and way of thinking "flutelike" equals: spread, fat, puffy (but not airy), soft (but not necessarily quiet), etc. "Reedy" equals: focused, concentrated, penetrating, maybe even piercing on the high notes (not necessarily a bad thing). Hans' whistles are a good example of "flutelike". WD Sweet is a good example of "reedy". Both are great whistles with very different sounds. Variety is the spice of life.

To me flute-like means pure with an absence of harmonics. If you look at the wave form on an oscilloscope, it looks like a "pure" sign wave. "Reedy" is a more complex sound a bigger proportion of lower harmonics (but still higher than the note being played). A whistle such as an Oak has a bunch of high harmonics in the wave. Some people say it sounds scratchy. I like all of the sounds, but I want one that has the same sound on all of the notes that it can make and does not have any background "hiss".