Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
onewheeldave wrote:Because I suspect that the people who run the boards are unaware of the strengh of feeling on this issue and, if no-one speaks up, that will continue.
I find many problems with this post of yours, onewheeldave. Well, OK, 3:
* I would seriously question whether there is much "strength of feeling" here against Moderator action along the lines you seem to be implying:
* I strongly suspect that there is a great deal of strength of feeling that, not only generally, but in the specific cases of the two recent threads, the Moderators were right;
* I don't believe we should be discussing on the flute forum - or any other C&F forum, for that matter - the forums themselves and the way they operate. If any of us want to do that, I suggest that it is more appropriate to do so off-forum, in PMs. I for one don't like "meta-discussions" - they waste space. I don't think this has anything to do with not wanting to question to Mods.
I've spoken up, because I didn't want to leave your assumptions unchallenged. But I resent being made to speak up about it, as this in itself perpetuates the meta-discussion that we are drifting into.
The sooner this thread is either locked, or disappears, the better, IMHO.
Tell us something.: I'm interested in Irish traditional music. Specifically flute & uilleann pipes at the moment. Did you know that the Sally Garden's starts like G2 DG B2 GB using the ABC language, that's certainly fascinating isn't it?
I find the vast majority of your posts informative and helpful and I admire your passion for the music and instruments themselves. No need to leave a board which you clearly enjoy being a part of and which clearly enjoys having you be a part of it.
Some continued editorial comments here, with Dale's permission, to address a few issues. And my apologies in advance for the length.
I always find the cultural dimension fascinating. Nearly all complaints of "censorship" that come our way tend to come exclusively from one particular national direction, and this thread is no exception. It's just an observation, and not exclusive to this board. The same direction, incidentally, as the occasional threats for libel and slander to come our way. An interesting contradiction, IMO, and not one that will be resolved here. Cultural difference exist. In the end, the Chiffboard is an American-based board, and American standards and sensibilities will usually apply.
Like many, the Chiffboard is a moderated, private but open forum, not a res publica. By analogy, you can think of a hosted party, with the hosts paying for the party space and the delicious party snacks. Good conversation and good fun are more than welcome, for it's the guests that make the party. But if the hosts are uncomfortable with any guest behavior, they may step in and intervene as their prerogative. If the guests are uncomfortable, they may leave. It's really that simple. Censorship? Discretion, maybe. And freedom of choice.
A while ago, the moderators did an informal count of the number of thread locks and interventions on the board over a period of several years. And the result hovered around 1%. Which can reasonably be described as light moderation. And the tendency recently has been to less moderation, not more. If some people choose to focus on the 1% and ignore the other 99%, or simply see only what they want to see, there's not much we can do.
For what it's worth, the #1 complaint we receive from users is of insufficient moderation, not too much. And indeed, we are not fond of the vitriol and meanness that we have seen other unmoderated forums descend to. Moderation is a choice on our part that we think is responsible, at least in part, for the ongoing success and survival of this board as a useful and lively place for civil discourse for 10+ years, accommodating different instrument communities, different personalities, different nationalities and vastly different cultural expectations. We make no apologies for that. You can read the moderation policies of other online forums which are far more Draconian.
Throughout, Dale Wisely's generosity, patience, good cheer, and support have been far and above the call of duty. Of course, for every brief "thank you" we receive for effort, time, and expense, we receive nine complaints about one thing or other. This is not "angling for compliments", simply a fact, and par for the course.
As for thread locks, they may serve several purposes. The phpBB software provides them for reasons that are well-understood by the internet community of volunteers who choose to take on the thankless tasks of board moderation. But temporary locks in particular are intended as a way to pause a moving thread to allow us time to read, digest, and evaluate as our volunteer time permits, given the other responsibilities of life. Very often, the action is taken at the request of you, the Chiffboard users. Every effort is made to comment and re-open these threads as soon as possible, when appropriate. If you are an impatient sort, or feel somehow entitled to instant service from a free internet resource, there's not much we can do about that, either.
In the case of the strangled flutes ... We had one thread that ran for an extraordinary 22 pages (censorship, indeed) before being temporarily suspended for ad hominem attacks in violation of stated Chiffboard policy. Followed by a restart, also in violation of stated board policy. Both threads were dealt with in accordance with the policy, nothing more. No individual was singled out for special treatment.
We are also particularly sensitive to the issues surrounding the participation of individuals with commercial interests and motivations - makers and sellers. The policies on Commercial Posting cover the basics of outright promotion. But we also expect that these individuals voluntarily adapt their posting behavior to reflect their different status. This does happen for the most part, transparently, as a matter of courtesy and common sense. And their presence enhances the quality of experience and information exchanged on the board.
However, when in our judgment a commercial poster nears the line where competitors may be placed unfairly in a negative light, inadvertently or not, the moderators reserve the right to step in. And yes, this is always a judgment call and a balancing act. Often, no one is happy if things reach that point. So be it. Despite the occasional problem or restriction, the breadth and variety of commercial information that flows on the Chiffboard speaks for itself. And we're delighted when all purveyors of the instruments we love and care about may benefit, with as even a hand as it is possible for us to provide.
In this case, we offered Terry praise for his effort, an explanation of our (and others') reservations, an explanation of delays, and an explicit invitation to discuss ways for the conversation to continue and the temporary thread locks to be released. A very odd "censorship". If he chooses instead to withdraw his participation in the Chiffboard, that is certainly his right. Or if he chooses to continue participation and dialogue with the well-intentioned keepers of this board, he is more than welcome to return.
As the owner of the board, I think I need to point out that, as much as I regret Terry's decision to depart, I've reviewed this situation and fully support the decision to lock & review these threads. There's absolutely nothing arbitrary about it.
We're not going to allow meta-discussions about board moderation. Send your comments to me via PM.
MTGuru wrote:Throughout, Dale Wisely's generosity, patience, good cheer, and support have been far and above the call of duty. Of course, for every brief "thank you" we receive for effort, time, and expense, we receive nine complaints about one thing or other. This is not "angling for compliments", simply a fact, and par for the course.
Well, i would still like to say thank you anyway.
i love this board; it's so much fun! thank you for all the work you do. i honestly can say that i might have given up trying to learn trad music if it wasn't for this board. i travel almost constantly and don't get to attend sessions much or go to workshops. i've got so many great pms from people here and read so many great posts; i can only imagine why you do it for free. i've often wondered, when i see MtGuru post something during the wee hours, how he has time to do this. i can't imagine.
then i'd like to say i don't like see threads locked; it seems like a shame to me. but what can you do? i agree with the post above, i prefer board type #2 to board type #1. if left to it's own devices; without moderation, "step off you noob" because every other post and what's the point? nobody benefits. (not to pick on Rob, he was already being picked on.)
i was amazed when i saw that Casey Burns and Terry McGee post to this board. wow! how amazing. i think it's a shame that perhaps we chased him off by in-fighting.
i've noticed that when things get tense, some people on this board tend to start making jokes or silly posts--i think i can assume in order to ease the tension? but sometimes it seems that it just makes people more angry. i guess i would just ask that people who post silly posts, consider you might be making things worse. and people who get angrier at seeing silly posts--maybe try to understand that they are just trying to ease the tension? is that so bad?
anyway, i hope Mr. McGee will come back. and i appreciate his attempt to moderate the discussion as it was getting out of hand, and i hope that he will be able to share information with us and benefit from participation is this board.
Tell us something.: I am an Irish flute player and whistler. I have been a member since 2007? This has been one of the most informative sites on Irish flute I have found.
MTGuru wrote:......
Cultural difference exist. In the end, the Chiffboard is an American-based board, and American standards and sensibilities will usually apply.
.............
You mean the one and only group of American standards and sensibilities?
And which one would that be? The one you represent I take it .........
(NB.
This is not a comment on moderation but a comment on an idea that most of my American friends would find laughable and embarrassing, that is the idea of a monolithic American standard/culture that can be claimed to be at odds with the standards and cultures of other English speaking democracies).
MTGuru wrote:
...........
As for thread locks, they may serve several purposes. The phpBB software provides them for reasons that are well-understood by the internet community of volunteers who choose to take on the thankless tasks of board moderation. But temporary locks in particular are intended as a way to pause a moving thread to allow us time to read, digest, and evaluate as our volunteer time permits, given the other responsibilities of life. Very often, the action is taken at the request of you, the Chiffboard users. Every effort is made to comment and re-open these threads as soon as possible, when appropriate. If you are an impatient sort, or feel somehow entitled to instant service from a free internet resource, there's not much we can do about that, either.
................
This is a perfectly reasonable and very useful point to make and, I daresay, its reasonableness would be apparent in every culture that I have experienced or lived in including Australasian, British, Irish, Indian and among the many American friends that I have known.
Please, don't go. I really am sorry. I really do respect the way you debate. I was really hoping we would have a chance to debate something from the same side. I really don't think MTG or any other moderator intended to leave the thread down for so long. I somewhat thought they were waiting for someone to PM them with a significant post before reopening the thread.
Speak up, judge righteously, Champion the poor and the needy.
MTG wrote that after his first review. In it he mentioned that he was intending to reopen the thread.
I'll reopen the thread soon so that Terry can continue to report on his experiment. I would suggest to Terry that, having raised the issue, enlisting the professional expertise of a qualified engineer might be more vigorously pursued...
It sounds like since then he received the report about an AD violation and hasn't had a chance to reopen (if they still intend to). I don't think mtg meant to leave anybody without a voice on the matter. At the same time, I do respect their right to say my house/my law (I'm not sure that is an American original ideal).
Speak up, judge righteously, Champion the poor and the needy.
I really am sorry. I really do respect the way you debate. I was really hoping we would have a chance to debate something from the same side. I really don't think MTG or any other moderator intended to leave the thread down for so long. I somewhat thought they were waiting for someone to PM them with a significant post before reopening the thread.