Another strangled flute

[Rob Sharer]

For example, Rod Cameron has commented on the number of times he has come across flutes - including historical flutes in museums - with the tenon on the top joint deformed by badly wrapped thread and the narrow A and B octaves that this causes.

Okay, there's one more top-flight flutemaker who claims it's true.



Rob

[dow]

Interesting contribution I thought.

As did I, talasiga. Thanks for bringing it back up.

[benhall.1]

I've got confused. It seems to me that Terry is citing the fact that sometimes damage occurs because of thread-wrapped tenons to argue against their use altogether.

The other makers that Rob cites don't seem to be saying that. They seem to me to be saying that sometimes damage occurs because of thread-wrapped tenons. Full stop. Bear in mind that I know that at least one of those cited makers (Chris) would still prefer to use thread, especially on old flutes.

But, Rob, in some of your comments you seem, at least to me, to be implying rather more uniformity of opinion amongst top makers than it looks to me as if there is. Am I just reading you wrong? Or have I misunderstood something else?

[Rob Sharer]

I'm just focusing my commentary on the narrow issue of whether thread can warp a tenon or not. My references to various makers are mainly intended to show how many of the sachems believe that thread can indeed do damage, regardless of whether this sends them off it entirely or merely suggests a particular thread type or application technique.



Rob

[rama]

how does thread alone warp a tenon? do you mean if i wrap a tenon with thread it will warp?
or is it socket/tenon tension that compresses upon the tenon (and the thread buffers against splitting as the tenon shifts)?

[Rob Sharer]

No. Correctly wrapped tenons do not get squished.

I would say that you could, however, squish one either by compression-wrapping the thread, i.e. with too much tension, or by applying too much then forcing/leaving the flute together. Moisture can contribute to the second case by swelling the joint too tight. Flute construction details would certainly affect how easy it is to screw up.



Rob

[George]

No. Correctly wrapped tenons do not get squished.

I would say that you could, however, squish one either by compression-wrapping the thread, i.e. with too much tension, or by applying too much then forcing/leaving the flute together. Moisture can contribute to the second case by swelling the joint too tight. Flute construction details would certainly affect how easy it is to screw up.

Ding dong! We're finally in agreement ... Instead of the word 'correctly' I've been using 'normally'. Applying too much thread is what causes force to be applied from a socket/barrel. That is what I've been saying has to apply much more force to a tenon than a thread wrap.

Skeptics rejoice as another has joined us.

What brought you around?

[benhall.1]

OK. Thanks Rob. I understand your position now.

I have several thread-wrapped flutes and one corked one. Aesthetically, I prefer the thread wrapping. Also, whether it's my imagination or not, there seems less difference in fit of the flute parts between dry and wet days. On a dry summer day, it seems to take a while for the cork to expand and seal properly ... not that it's easy to remember dry summer days at the moment ...

I'm also biased in favour of Chris. Anything that's good enough for him is good enough for me.

[m31]

Yes but it is fallacious to hastily accept an unproven model by virtue of its plausibility.

Fancy talk, for sure. But...who's hasty? And what's unproven?

Terry, Patrick, Chris, Jon....all have taken years to form their conclusions, years spent head-down over the bench, not the keyboard. I for one am prepared to accept expert testimony as very persuasive, especially when it comes from several reliable sources.


Rob

Sorry that ain't "proof", or at least testimonies, even consensus views from our most revered experts, do not firmly establish causality or fact. Agreed that it is persuasive.

My comment was also in response to your "As with most things, the following is true:". My bad for not quoting you completely. People fall for fallacies all the time, whether they're from advertisements, politicians, news media, products with health or environmental claims, posts on tone of boxwood vs cocus... A plausible explanation is all it takes to make something true. A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest, as the saying goes. Faith-based decision making is the norm.

[Rob Sharer]

No. Correctly wrapped tenons do not get squished.

I would say that you could, however, squish one either by compression-wrapping the thread, i.e. with too much tension, or by applying too much then forcing/leaving the flute together. Moisture can contribute to the second case by swelling the joint too tight. Flute construction details would certainly affect how easy it is to screw up.

Ding dong! We're finally in agreement ... Instead of the word 'correctly' I've been using 'normally'. Applying too much thread is what causes force to be applied from a socket/barrel. That is what I've been saying has to apply much more force to a tenon than a thread wrap.

Skeptics rejoice as another has joined us.

What brought you around?

Nothing, mate. And you're not fooling me.



Rob

[Terry McGee]

Applying too much thread is what causes force to be applied from a socket/barrel. That is what I've been saying has to apply much more force to a tenon than a thread wrap.

No, no, no, George, there is no evidence to suggest that the strangling force comes from the socket, applied through the wrap. If that were the case, the wrap would have collapsed too, and there's no sign of that whatsoever. It stood unscathed and unscatheable, like a mighty band of steel, and probably would have gone whirling through space for eternity as a lasting memorial to flutekind had I not taken a scalpel to it.

The thin wood of a socket cannot apply much force before splitting - indeed if it comes to a tussle, normally the socket cracks long before any damage registers to the tenon. Although tenons are thin, they can withstand a lot of punishment. Wood is good in compression, as railway ties attest, but not good in rupture mode, as we know who have split our own firewood. That's what makes this so interesting - the fact that a normally strong structure can be so compromised by such a simple error.

Whether Rob is absolutely correct when he says...

No. Correctly wrapped tenons do not get squished .

I don't know. It would be safer to say that "Correctly wrapped tenons do not get excessively squished". We can live with a bit of squishing, but strangulation is to be avoided at all costs. It's very hard to come up with a repair for it other than tenon replacement, which I prefer to avoid on nice old flutes!

Terry

[Rob Sharer]

Fair enough! I was being glib anyway.

As I said before, I personally prefer cork. That said, I didn't want anyone to think I was predicting imminent doom for all threaded tenons. Carry on.


Rob

[Nanohedron]

...so, I suppose the thread isn't wrapped [up] yet. Dimwitted pun intended. Ahem.

[Rob Sharer]

Yeah, a real corker.....







R

[Nanohedron]

Ooh...socket to us, Rob.