chin/shoulder method of holding the flute

[ImNotIrish]

So I recently, just for fun decided to try and hold my flute touching my shoulder, kinda tucked in as you can see Conal O' Grada doing in the pic on
his thread/ The first thing I noticed is that my sound had that really honking, raspy, deep, powerful sound that has pretty much always eluded me. The second thing I noticed was that I had an awful cramp in my neck. I just couldn't get comfortable with the position. I guess my questions are as follows: was I actually playing with a better tone, or was I just hearing the flute better because it was closer to my ear? And secondly, how do I position myself so that this position is more comfortable?

Thanks, Arbo.

[Guinness]

I started to play shoulder a while back and there was a significant improvement in tone and tone consistency. There's no question that the shoulder stabilizes the angle between the jetstream and the embouchure hole. And because much of the weight is taken off the LH, the A and B rolls improve as well. Indeed the added stability allows me to cover the tone holes practically with a feathertouch.

The trick to avoiding neck cramps is to stop tensing up and avoid playing for long stretches (take rests between tune sets).

Yes it's a crutch and it's inelegant but it works extremely well.

[Cayden]

It's not unprecedented and seems to work for some, not sure it the way to go though.

[jim stone]

If it were me I would be careful. I'm in this for the long
haul and I'm concerned about the body breaking down.
Especially if it hurts. Not that it must lead to grief,
but I'm nervous about spending lots of time in
extreme positions, e.g. the neck twisted. I believe
it increases the possibility of injury.

Whatever one accomplishes this
way can, by honest toil, be accomplished
in a standard position too.

By the way I continue to work to reduce somewhat the bend
in my left wrist--for similar reasons. I just keep it in mind
and adjust the finger positions so that the wrist is somewhat
straighter.

A good deal of playing, if one is serious and at it for long
periods, is learning how to play safe, IMO.

My 2 cents.

[Jon C.]

If it were me I would be careful. I'm in this for the long
haul and I'm concerned about the body breaking down.
Especially if it hurts. Not that it must lead to grief,
but I'm nervous about spending lots of time in
extreme positions, e.g. the neck twisted. I believe
it increases the possibility of injury.

Whatever one accomplishes this
way can, by honest toil, be accomplished
in a standard position too.

By the way I continue to work to reduce somewhat the bend
in my left wrist--for similar reasons. I just keep it in mind
and adjust the finger positions so that the wrist is somewhat
straighter.

A good deal of playing, if one is serious and at it for long
periods, is learning how to play safe, IMO.

My 2 cents.

Good point, ask Catherine how her neck/shoulder is doing, after playing all these years, not very good.

[Hoovorff]

I agree with Jim. Those players probably won't be able to keep up that awkward playing position for very long. I hurt just looking at players who hold the flute that way. A lot of them will most likely need neck surgery, etc. somewhere down the line.

Didn't Jean-Michel Veillon have neck problems for this reason? Seems like I heard something along those lines....

Jeanie

[flutefry]

The Rockstro grip provides support for the flute, and allows freedom of movement for the first 2 fingers of the upper hand, and allows one to have the upper hand thumb not touching the flute, which prevents death grip. It's odd to get used to pushing out with the lower thumb, and to have the base of the upper hand first finger acting as a fulcrum, but once learned, you have the benefits of the flute on shoulder position without the potential neck and shoulder issues.

To forestall Rob, this isn't an argument against other grips, it's an argument that one can obtain the advantages of the shoulder prop method another way.

Best,
Hugh

[Clinton]

Just learning the flute, but I have lots of years under my belt in other music styles/instruments, as well as analyzing ergonomics in other activities.

To my mind, (correct me if I am wrong please!) the main thing that is going to determine the sound of the flute is the specific relationship of one's embouchure and breath support with the embouchure of the flute. In theory, one could stand on their head, and as long as there is a good air stream, directed properly through a good embouchure into the flute, then it is going to sound "good".

So, if one finds that the shoulder rest is making the flute sound "better" then it must also be having some effect on the embouchure and/or breath support.

The trick then would be to find these differences, and then apply them to a less contorted hold.

Of course, keep in mind that this is coming from someone who's flute sound varies from the time of day, phase of the moon, and the fluctuations of the US dollar to the Nigerian Naira...

Respectfully

Clinton

[Denny]

that was entirely too coherent....

just stop

[Il Friscaletto]

Am i imagining things, or is this method more common with left handed flute players? I've met three left handed flute players over the past several months, and they all rest the end of the flute on their shoulder.

[jemtheflute]

Dunno 'bout lefties, and I too have no wish to re-open Rob's sore points or mine (! !), but I agree with Clinton. There really shoudn't be any problem with L hand (for R handers) mobilty/dexterity in Rockstro type hold if you do it properly. Regarding the actual feasibility of the shoulder-support thing, and ignoring for now its desirability, it depends, as does the funtioning of any style of grip, upon the individual's physique. Personally, I can't do it at all unless in some kind of slumped-in-an-armchair type posture which would in any case be unconducive to good playing. I think it probably requires a fairly short neck to be viable. I can't really get my shoulder up enough and/or my chin down and round to the left enough to do it at all when sitting or standing up straight. For me it is painful even to try, let alone sustain, but I do accept it seems to work for some folk.

Apart from whether one can actually do it and not be in discomfort doing so, there is also the question of how posture affects breath control and air-column support. I think the consensus would be that the severe twist of the neck down and to the side seen in players using this method restricts the openness of the throat and the directness of support from the abdomen and is not the optimum way of helping your body to achieve those desirable things. Constriction and tension are generally to be avoided.

[Guinness]

body breaking down
extreme positions
neck twisted
hurt
neck surgery
severe twist

Are any of these characterizations based on fact or is this psychological projection? Yes this position is riskier, since it's not neutral (but then neither is the standard flute posture). No, we're not all in neck braces and receiving disability benefits.

[eskin]

One of my very accomplished flute playing friends who used the shoulder position nearly ended up requiring potentially dangerous major neck surgery as a result of the strain it put on his spine and almost had to give up the instrument. I'd certainly never play this way or recommend it to anyone.

Its quite possible to achieve an absolutely stable platform for the instrument using a more classical hold (not necessarily restricted to the Rockstro, I play flat fingered) without resorting to these sorts of contortions.

[lixnaw]

Oh dear, another crusade to ban the on the shoulder style.
You better warn that Catherine McAvoy and Conal O' Grada , what clumsy buggers they really must be!

I can play both ways, if i just lift my shoulder 1 inch, i am playing on the shoulder. It's not a big difference ergonomic wise, but it gives me some extra ballance, were my fingers had to do the balancing otherwise. Another thing i noticed is that while plaing on the shoulder is that the tip of my tongue is touching my lower teeth, wich gives me a lot of confidence while playing.

I think fiddle playing is way more difficult.

[Denny]

I'm gonna have to think about this one for a while....


what part is the tip????