Suggestions for Pipe Making Metal Lathes?

hpinson · Post by **hpinson** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:46 pm

Hello, i'm getting started in amateur Uilleann pipe and wooden flute making, and am starting to tool up.

My first big tool purchase will be a metal lathe, followed by a mill, and I'm looking for opinions about what cnc capable lathe products might be a good value.

I am considering the Sherline 4400 17" lathe (around a grand with tooling), or the Shoptask Eldorado Bridgemill (around 3 grand with tooling).

The Sherline looks like the better made tool, but i'm worried that it will be too small for boring chanters and other long parts. Does anyone have specific experience with the Sherline 17" lathe for pipemaking or flutemaking?

Specifically, What is the longest length that I would need to bore for a D chanter? How large a lathe (between centers) would be needed for this operation?

I'm pretty confident that the Shoptask, a much larger (22" between centers) and heavier (!@1000lbs)machine is up to the task. It has a built-in mill as well, whiich seems a great deal more rigid that the Smithy and Grizzly equivilents, since it is braced with a bridge.

...deep breath. Anyone with experiences to share or recommendations?

Thanks!

)

hpinson · Post by **hpinson** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:22 pm

This reply came to me, on the same question, from the Shoptask delphi forum. It seems quite perceptive of the problems one might encounter.

<snip>

219.3 in reply to 219.1

A taper 10-12" long suggests an overall length 2-4" longer allowing for gripping the wood. I am a bit uncertain how this would be done on a lathe with a 20" bed as the tool would have to reach in this far unless built with extensions. The Shoptask spindle bore is ~1.125" or a little less so if the work could extend into the spindle this would perhaps allow the Shoptask to do the job. Is this done by boring and reaming to size or by cutting the taper primarily? A 12x36 lathe (Grizzly, Jet, Enco, Travers, J&L, plus multitudes of others has a spindle bore of 1.5" (+/-). Work holding with metal working tools on wood is problematic unless the outside can be completely cleaned off in subsequent processing or discarded by cutting off. I know there are specialty chucks for holding wood without damage on wood lathes, how adaptable these are to metal lathes is probably an exercise left to the user. The Shoptask, with a little work/experience is capable of accuracies in the 0.001-2" range. It will not do this immediately, as accuracy depends more on the operator than the machine. Steve

hpinson · Post by **hpinson** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:23 pm

And my reply to Steve on the Shoptask Dephi forum. Comments? Especilly, is 6-8 inches of boring length on a lathe enough for a D chanter? I have no chanter to measure (but am looking for one).

<snip>

That is an excellent answer. Thanks Steve! If I may, I will paraphrase what you are saying (mostly to clarify my own understanding).
The Sherline 17" lathe is not long enough for this sort of task.

To bore a length, you essentially need twice that length, plus the length of the chuck, between centers. This makes the 20" between centers Shoptask good for boring a length of 6-8 inches on the lathe.

It's possible that the work could extend into the spindle of the Shoptask lathe. I had noticed this feature when looking at the manual, and that was one of the features that attracted me to the Shoptask.

I've not done this task before, but I gather that the work is done by first boring the wood blank, then reaming to size, unless you have a special taper tool, which I do not. I've seen some reference to how to make such a tool in Serpents reply to this question on the Chiff and Fipple Uillean Bagpipe forum (http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ight=lathe). What Serpent describes to make this tool is currently way beyond my skills.

I'm assuming that whatever lathe I use, I will have to discard the wood areas gripped by the chuck, because they will be damaged. A parting cutoff tool should help with this, if I understand correctly. Again this points to the need for adequate length between centers.

The accuracy that you describe (0.001-2") is good enough. The Uillean pipes made in 18th Century on manual wood lathes probably did not have anywhere near that accuracy, and certainly not repeatability from chanter to chanter.

Since I'm just starting out-- my accuracy can do nothing but improve as I gain skill (i hope). CNC (down the road) should help.

It sounds like the Shoptask Eldorado Bridgemill is marginal in length for this task, but not in accuracy.

I'm going to keep looking, perhaps for something a bit longer in the 24 to 36 inch range. Unfortunaly, I'm guessing rather than $3000 ill be moving into the $4000-$5000 price range.

Thanks so very much for your response. Every now and then you hit gold in these forums!

The Eldorado Bridgemill does look like a very capable machine, and I have to look carefully at the measurements of the pope chanters that I want to bore. The Irish Flute sections are not so long, and would fit the Eldorado nicely. http://www.shoptask.com/

- Harlow Pinson
hpinson@indepthl.com

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:46 pm

A search on the word lathe revealed these previous posts. Hopefully you'll find something of interest:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... e37823a11b

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... e37823a11b

djm · Post by **djm** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:23 pm

I haven't done it, but I have watched it being done. A lot of the drilling and reaming is done so slowly that it is actually being done by hand. The lathe is used more to hold the chanter while the bore is being worked. Turning doesn't actually come into play until the bore is done and you want to shape the outside. You might not always want to limit yourself to D chanters, in which case you would definitely want to consider a longer bed, as something like a B chanter will run to 18".

A three or four jaw chuck will hold the chanter blank fine with only minimal marking, which is easily finished off later. You need to consider how hard the woods used for instuments are, and how hard they are to mark. The top and bottom of the chanter where the chuck jaws are won't be seen anyways, as both are wrapped in hemp, the top then covered by the cap, and the bottom then covered by a ferrule.

djm

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:35 am

hpinson wrote: To bore a length, you essentially need twice that length, plus the length of the chuck, between centers. This makes the 20" between centers Shoptask good for boring a length of 6-8 inches on the lathe.

Brad Angus simply holds the piece in the chuck and lets it spin free while boring with a homemade drill made from drill rod. No steady rests etc. I don't know how long the bed of his lathe is but I don't think it's over 30". Brad, Gallagher, and Lynch all use old South Bend or Atlas Lathes, very sturdy American jobs. Brad started with a Jet but got rid of it very soon after.

stew · Post by **stew** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:10 pm

hpinson,
I think Peter Hunter just used a Myford 7 for making pipes on
and he certainly turned out top grade kit O.K, and I ain't seen any
sets yet that betters Peters craftsmanship, you don't need loads of
fancy gear, just a tidy second hand lathe will do with some turning
tools, and a bench drill with the required drill bits and reamers
the rest is up to you with the skill of your hands, all the best.

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:44 am

I use a Sherline long bed (17") lathe and their vertical mill for making my Northumbrian smallpipes and can not praise them enough for quality and user support. If you want to contact me off list, I would be happy to answer any questions. I suspect that the one thing they might lack is enough torque if you are using one big reamer to make uilleann bores. Otherwise, the Sherline is a great tool set. By the way, I even make extended D Northumbrian chanters on this lathe, including bore work, even though the whole chanter is 14" long - but that is partly because those are made in two pieces. Two piece construction may well be workable for uilleann pipes as well. After all, it works for clarinets and flutes and it works for my pipes, which have a smaller bore than uilleanns. I would also add that, like others, I do not use a tail stock for making the bore and, since the Sherline tail is easily removable, you can easily work on a 14-15" bore in an unsupported manner. Anyway, write to me off list if you want to know any more. No I don't own Sherline stock or have any interest in the company.

hpinson · Post by **hpinson** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:40 pm

Hi John. I'm convinced Sherline is a first-rate company too. Joe Martin's Tabletop Machining book, and the sheer amount of information made freely available on the Sherline website... well they are a class act. I'm also certain that the machines are high quality, based on a lot of net dialog, so my concern is mainly if the lathe is long enough and has enough torque. It seems marginal in both respects for a traditional Uilleann chanter, though technuques for tapered boring are brought up here that I had not considered.

I've pretty much decided to purchase the Sherline 5400 mill. Will use that regardless for precision drilling of holes.

I just found a website with information on how a Harbor Freight / Grizzly Chinese 20" lathe was modified to accept the Sherline tooling. That seems intriguing, as that lathe would solve the torque issue. It's a mess stock though, and needs much in the way of modifications to be useable. Not so with the Sherline I understand!

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Default.htm

http://www.homecnc.info/9x20lathe.htm

http://bedair.org/9x20.html

http://www.finelinehair.com/home/index.htm

You bring up something that I have been considering-- that is, perhaps Northumbrian Smallpipes may be a better choice for a beginner to attempt to turn, than the Uilleann Pipes. They seem _somewhat_ less complex, and there are Smallpipe plans available on the net.

Here's a question. Did you choose the metric or inch scale on the Sherline? I am tending towards the Inch Scale because of Joe Martins discussion on the topic in his book. Do available measurements of pipes, that you have encountered, tend to be metric or inch?

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:17 am

Harlow, I think you can do any boring required without tailstock support, so the Sherline would work there, but if you wanted to take one big reamer and remove a lot of wood with it, I doubt the Sherline would have enough torque. So if that is your goal, yes, I think getting a beefier lathe would be in order. Or you could get both!

When you get their mill, I would get the indexing attachment. It makes slot making and hole drilling very nice operations. The only trouble is the length of the bed that comes with it may be too short for your needs. I made my own bed, based on the one that came with, in wood and it works fine.

If you get a beefier lathe, I would try to find an old higher quality lathe, like a Southbend, which you can probably get for not much more than a new Chinese-made lathe. It will be better in the long run.

Yes, I think Northumbrians are easier to make, in that they have a cylindrical bore, but harder in the key making area, at least once you get up to 14-17 keys. But you really need to just set your mind to making what you want to make. If its harder, its also more rewarding when you get there.

You wrote "Here's a question. Did you choose the metric or inch scale on the Sherline? I am tending towards the Inch Scale because of Joe Martins discussion on the topic in his book. Do available measurements of pipes, that you have encountered, tend to be metric or inch?"

Plans seem to often mix metric and inch. I bought an electronic caliper that will display in either, so if I need to I can set it for the metric measurement, hit the button, and display the measurement in inches, which matches my lathe feedscrew. So it doesn't much make a difference to me.

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