Need session etiquette advice

[monkey587]

Hello all. I need some advice. Many of the sessions in my area are being ruined by a few factors:

1) a particular loud, boorish rhythmless accompanist/folksinger who considers himself an ITM god
2) the ITM community members who run sessions and/or have clout in the area are very very nice and don't want to tell him he's scaring away all the good players.

I am considered to be a very good accompanist and can hold my own on mandolin, and I am sortof an intermediate melody player on flute. I have been going to a sortof intermediate session with my flute to have fun, pick up tunes, and get used to playing flute around others. I'm basically considered a regular in the session but I'm not the leader. This is a friendly, non-confrontational session, and strange, LOUD people with no clue are beginning to arrive and suck the fun out of THIS session, too. Last night it was another loud, rhythmless guitarist of the bluegrassy persuasion (lots of E7 chords in Bag of Spuds, for example) blasting in my ear and generally oblivious to his surroundings, and a completely off-her-rocker woman with a recorder squawking like mad in between tunes. Oh, and her husband with the lute(!)

So basically, here's the deal. Most of the really good players in the area won't even come to sessions any more because of this phenomenon. Even the sessions for serious intermediate players are falling apart. I don't think I'm an ITM guru, I'm certainly not a "village elder," and I have no clout... I am not a jerk and don't want to have a reputation of being one.

I do really want to find some way to keep the whole ITM scene from dying because of these tasteless and very tacky people who think that the solution when they don't know what to do is to do whatever they're doing louder.

Any advice?

[BillChin]

Let me preface this by saying you can accept or reject my remarks, and that I may be totally off target. In general, there isn't much that can be done. Confrontations, sincere explanations only tend to generate hard feelings and weaken the community. I can tell the story of one one group (not music). There was one person that most people in the group did not like. Eventually the group "voted" that person out. Guess what? A few months after that the entire group disbanded. The drama was gone and the group was boring after that. You and others might believe that banning the seemingly troublesome person would make everything hunky-dory, but in my experience that is usually an illusion. There are much deeper problems than that one person, if the group is not strong enough to handle a single troublemaker.

Some cliches: Petty disputes have ruined more groups than just about anything else. Humor is your best friend. Temper is your worst enemy. Take the total view, not the partial view--have some perspective. There is an ebb and flow to these things. Perhaps it will take a new crop of people that aren't so sensitive and petty, aren't so ego driven, aren't so controlling to revitalize the scene.

[Nanohedron]

This is the sort of thing that gets private home sessions started. Not a bad way to go, really.

[SteveShaw]

Six months ago we all thought we had a perfect setup - seven of us, with all our strengths and weaknesses but with a firm sense of what we wanted to get from our playing. Then one us brought along a not-very-good bodhran player, his girlfriend, and we said nothing. Then a guy who is a superb fiddle player in another genre joined in...great stuff, he picks tunes up fast and plays like a good 'un. Then a very attractive young lady, (we're all middle-aged men...draw yer own conclusions as to our leniency!) learning the guitar but at an elementary stage, joined in, quietly to start with but now loud 'n' proud...then another of us brought a mate along who sings English folk songs whilst accompanying himself on guitar, also proud and inappropriately loud...at one point last week we had five guitars and two melody instruments. You can't arbitrarily let one in then stop someone else. I wish we'd declared ourselves a closed session now right from the start in the light of what's happened. Too late for such considerations. All I can think of is to have a tete-a-tete (Don't know how you do keyboard accents) with the core chaps and decide on a course of action. We'll probably end up speaking quietly but firmly to the transgressors. Best not to go it alone, even though the alternative may seem conspiratorial, otherwise you'll get everyone's back up and end up getting nowhere.

[monkey587]

Thanks for the feedback. Most don't like the idea of banning people. I thought about printing out session etiquette sheets to pass out to people who are serious violators, but most of the time they are the ones who I think are least likely to take the hint.

I am all in favor of the home session idea, too, but don't have a place to host them (although it's not the usual "guitarist without girlfriend" problem). I encourage others to, and sometimes it happens, but not with regularity. When they do happen, they are generally above my level and I am content with just listening because I would rather listen to a great session than play in a lousy one.

I'm good friends with a lot of great players, and they just don't go to sessions anymore because it's no longer possible to just go play together and enjoy it. There always seems to be someone with something to prove, and their method is volume.

[cowtime]

Thanks for the feedback. Most don't like the idea of banning people. I thought about printing out session etiquette sheets to pass out to people who are serious violators, but most of the time they are the ones who I think are least likely to take the hint.

I am all in favor of the home session idea, too, but don't have a place to host them (although it's not the usual "guitarist without girlfriend" problem). I encourage others to, and sometimes it happens, but not with regularity. When they do happen, they are generally above my level and I am content with just listening because I would rather listen to a great session than play in a lousy one.

I'm good friends with a lot of great players, and they just don't go to sessions anymore because it's no longer possible to just go play together and enjoy it. There always seems to be someone with something to prove, and their method is volume.

When I read this, the first thing I thought was "wonder why those who enjoy playing together don't just get together somewhere else?" Heck, if they play above your level, it sounds like a challenge to rise to their level.
If they are friends they'll humor you with a tune for you to play every now and then, I'd think. At least that's what we use to do, making music(old time).

The alternative to this is like you said, having a private talk with the offenders. I've gotta think though, that if someone does not listen to anyone else while playing in a group, and they are messing the others up and don't even know it, they are probably too thick to "get it". I know all too well how even one really disruptive player can destroy a group.

[ChrisA]

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to just be 'extremely helpful' to the problem players.

"Err, I noticed you were playing a lot of E7s there, but that should've really been an Emajor" (or whatever)

"Err, I noticed you don't quite have the melody down. Y'know the chieftans due the same tune on their third CD. You might get the right notes from that."

And so on.

Just once or twice in a session the first time, but if they keep screwing up, keep 'helping' them even if it's on every tune.

--Chris

[djm]

Steve, did your original group ever have any set agenda, i.e. was it IrTrad only, or were you playing many different styles that would attract more musicians from other genres? I have seen a few situations where people have come in and wanted to add their own agenda, but if the core group stood their ground and stayed with the IrTrad, the interloper would either acquiesce or bugger off in a huff - either way, your session stays intact. However, if you are playing a mishmash of styles and intrumentation from the start, how could you expect it not to devolve further?

djm

[SteveShaw]

We play mostly Irish, a bit of Scottish, a little bit of English, (e.g. Northumbrian). Two of the chaps are in a pretty accomplished bluegrass setup and will occasionally play something of theirs. We've been happily doing this for years. The repertoire isn't the problem. It's the extra not-very-competent players who don't know most of our stuff - the increased volume and muddiness. We've definitely made the mistake of being too accommodating, but then in the last few months we have gained a very good fiddle player as I said.

Two reasons for not just sloping off to someone's house: we are well-liked in our local pub, and we get free beer!

Steve

[Andy Parnell]

There are two things that work, have a core group of you who are the 'regulars' (you may have to move elsewhere and start again by the sounds of it) and others are guests. The core group makes the rules. I've never actually had a chance to implement it but a really good idea is that each person gets 3 tunes to play and the person to the left (right, etc) must kick off into their set but follow on from the last one. This is a lot of fun. Often, people who cannot really play go for a guitar or drum as they think that's easier, yet in a good session, it's these people who are supposed to hold the session together and 'keep the beat'.

If you keep changing the beat when it's time for the next person, it confuses the uninitiated quite quickly and they soon leave the session (some keep playing 4/4 time when you've all changed to a slip jig though so be careful!).

Most inexperienced bodhran players (of the type I described above) lose it everytime you do a slip jig so play lots of slip jigs and you'll soon shut them up! I think it's the same for inexperienced guitarists. If you've got the skill go from 4/4 to 9/8 then to 6/8 and watch them cringe in silence!

Or, play slow tunes and that will also throw them!

Hornpipes, many of them don't get it. If the core group mix and match their tunes and be careful to stay clear of easy sets, and do it for a few weeks, you'll lose these loud'n'proud types very quickly!

But you need a core group to go for it so you get used to weird key changes and tempo changes with your regular sets! I've had enough of this same problem in one of the sessions I'm in now and I'm in the process of setting up another session where we'll do just that...

My problem is more a clash of cultures with English folk music players not knowing the Irish stuff and vice versa. Time to simply break off from them and be done with it!

Hope that helps?

Cheers!

Andy

[Nanohedron]

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to just be 'extremely helpful' to the problem players.

"Err, I noticed you were playing a lot of E7s there, but that should've really been an Emajor" (or whatever)

"Err, I noticed you don't quite have the melody down. Y'know the chieftans due the same tune on their third CD. You might get the right notes from that."

And so on.

Just once or twice in a session the first time, but if they keep screwing up, keep 'helping' them even if it's on every tune.

--Chris

There's a guitar player who deigns to grace our sessions maybe every four to eight months or so. Major sevenths in intolerable abundance, and should you play anything in a Mixolydian mode, she can't find the tonic if her life depended on it. She only is familiar with a few basic tunes. But she barrels on, fishing spastically about amid the playing, and loudly; she apparently thinks that she's supposed to be equal to the task (hey, it's just dance music for farmers; how hard can it be?) because she can play whatever it is she plays apart from the ITM thing. Well, she ain't. Only seldom does she display the good manners to put a feckin' lid on it, although "good manners" is being kind; it's more a grudging admission of defeat. Even then she's not bothering to really listen to the tune and where it's going if she doesn't know it. Last night while we were playing the Kilfenora Jig (the five-parter), for some reason she decided on working the E minor thing. I told her it was basically in D (had to three times; cloth ears are remarkably insulated), and she said, "I know," down her nose to me. The amended results weren't an improvement. The rest of us hung it up early. So did she, as a result. Evidently there was no fun to be had in tormenting the melody players any more.

I know the above isn't at all constructive, on the face of it, but I hope that people will take it as a cautionary tale. Just because you have an instrument in your lap doesn't entitle you to play it. I would never sit in on a bluegrass session, for example, without first becoming conversant in the idiom.

I agree, Chris, that "helping" every time is a good idea. It's just that some people are self-entitled and immune to improvement, AND they keep coming back.

Sometimes I just despair.

[dubhlinn]

Last night while we were playing the Kilfenora Jig (the five-parter), for some reason she decided on working the E minor thing

Sometimes I just despair.

I feel your pain bro...
Mind you, it could have been worse..

I have seen (heard) this kind of thing and it is,as you say,despairing.There is nothing in this world as bad as someone banging away in the wrong key,not to mention the fact that they know f**k all about keys to begin with.I suppose that this type of human should really just go and find a Dating Agency cos they ain't gonna meet a soul mate at a session,.....unless there is a Bodhran player floating about.
C'est la Vie..
Slan,
D.

[SteveShaw]

Dunno about a written list of "session rules." The idea of a formal kind of document in what should be an informal "fun"-type gathering might just grate a little. From the posts so far, this whole area of session interlopers who misguidedly think they can just waltz in and do it all seems to be a common problem. There have been some pretty good ideas expressed so far, but an awful lot depends on the personalities involved on "both sides." I can't help thinking that the direct, having-a-word-in-your-ear approach is going to have the best chance of the desired outcome, but you sort of have to have the prior agreement of the other "core" people as to what to say, how to say it and who says it. That means sitting through a whole wrecked session before you even get the chance to discuss it with your allies - very frustrating. On at least one occasion (not recently) I've waded in on a transgressor only to be undermined by someone else who I thought was on my side! Another aspect not to overlook is the fact that tolerance is a mighty virtue. A newcomer may be upsetting the applecart now but in the long run may just turn out to be a fantastic session player, given a few nudges of encouragement in the right direction. Hands up all those of us who think we're the dog's danglies now, but who at one time or another in our dim and distant mis-spent youth might just have caused some seasoned sessioneers just a teensy bit of irritation....and I play the harmonica, for Pete's sake!

Steve

[SteveShaw]

<snip>.....unless there is a Bodhran player floating about.
C'est la Vie..
Slan,
D.

Belly-up preferably!

Steve

[Eldarion]

Re: Guitarists and drummers

yet in a good session, it's these people who are supposed to hold the session together and 'keep the beat'.

Actually this is what happens in mediocre sessions. Guitarists and drummers are required to mark out a steady beat for everyone so the group is more tolerable to listen to. In a good session the melody players can actually keep a steady tempo. Everything rhythmic can be generated soley by the melody players with more complexity than any strummer or beater can do.