Scottish vs Irish Trad?

chattiekathy · Post by **chattiekathy** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:20 pm

On 2002-09-06 16:14, AaronMalcomb wrote:
A phenomenal Scottish whistle player is Marc Duff, formerly or Capercaillie but is currently with Wolfestone I believe. On Capercaillie's album Crosswinds, Marc plays a track that starts with My Laggan Love and is followed by a tune called Fox on the Town. Brilliant whistle playing. Phil Smillie of the Tannahill Weavers is also a very good whistle and flute player. Often in Scottish folk bands the whistle isn't as prominent. The spotlight is usually given to the piper or fiddler or often the accordion players. That trend is changing I think.

Slainte!
Aaron

[ This Message was edited by: AaronMalcomb on 2002-09-06 16:16 ]

Aaron,

Thanks for the suggestions.

Kathy

weepiper · Post by **weepiper** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 1:05 pm

Hi all,

Ok here are my hot tips for Scottish players.

1. Rory Campbell. He plays with several well-respected bands, Deaf Shepherd and Old Blind Dogs for example, and has done several solo/duo cds. He mostly plays low whistle but some high whistle too. I recommend a cd he made with Malcolm Stitt (bouzouki/guitar player in Deaf Shepherd, also session musician extraordinaire) called Field of Bells. There is some great whistle work on this. He is also Piping God and a thoroughly nice chap...

2. Martyn Bennett. Son of Margaret Bennett, Gaelic singer and ethnology expert. Has produced 3 or 4 solo cds. Try his first one for a lot of good tunes to learn on the whistle.

Warning: neither of these guys is for the faint-hearted! They are both quite into 'fusion' of modern dance music etc with traditional tunes, so a lot of their stuff involves samples, drum machines etc. Personally I think it's great but it's not everyone's cup of tea... if you prefer the more traditional sound have a listen to any of the Deaf Shepherd albums.
Also they are both pipers too, these are not cds that focus on the whistle all the time. But you will get a good idea of the Scottish style from them. And bear in mind that all the GHB pipe tunes work on a D whistle because pipes use only G natural, so no pesky G sharps to worry about.

I don't know how easy it will be to find these cds across the pond, so have a look at the Music Scotland website http://www.musicscotland.com which does free delivery worldwide and carries all of the above artists. Put "Rory Campbell" or "Martyn Bennett" into the search box and it'll bring up lots to choose from.

Battlefield Band etc that were mentioned above are all good choices too

chattiekathy · Post by **chattiekathy** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:55 pm

Thanks Weepiper.

I will check out the website for those CD's. I like the idea of free shipping too! I will probably like their style of music, I have very eclectic tastes in music.

I got to see "Clann an Drumma" on stage at the Highland games today and they were awesome! I don't think they are very traditional. They have a website for those of you who are interested. http://www.clannandrumma.com/home.html They have one piper and the rest are drums. No whistles I am afraid but they were still awesome! They really got into it!!!

I also got to ask a piper about "Dolina Mackay" and he said he knew it but he didn't play it for me because he was getting ready to perform. It turns out his name was "Mackay". Out of all those pipers there I picked the one with that name. Cool Huh?

I did see some whistles but no whistle players except the little kids that talked their parents into buying them one. Poor parents! I bet it was a long way home for them tonight.

Well, thanks again for the information. Looking forward to your clips and snips if you can get them on the board.

Kathy

theweirdscotsman · Post by **theweirdscotsman** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:37 pm

Sorry to resurrect this discussion and I'm sorry if this had already been mentioned. From a fiddling point of view, up to about Neil Gow's time a large majority of scottish fiddlers we very classically trained. This meaning that they had really good vibrato, tone, etc. Neil Gow was really one of the first scottish fiddlers to use a different type of bowings and it may be safe to say a little rougher style. I hope I'm not stepping on toes by saying this but it is my opinion that in tradition, irish fiddling has more of a "sloppier" style. Generally no vibrato is used on slower songs and other things like that. I realize I am making quite a generalization but this is my overall opinion. I'd like to here what you guys think.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 2:47 am

It was Breandan Breathnach who said that a fiddler is not an untutored violinist or a violinist a tutorored fiddler [or something to that extend]. He was right ofcourse.
The Scottish fiddlers are heavily influenced by classical training, you name Gow but Scott Skinner springs to mind as well.
It's a very different music and I don't think the Irish fiddler should be called 'sloppier' for not using certain techniques from the classical repertoire. Listen closely to Bobby Casey, Michael Coleman, Breandan McGlinchey, Tommy Potts and others there's nothing wanting in their music.

energy · Post by **energy** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:22 am

Well, my gut response was to agree with you, but I'd like a little clarification on what you mean by "sloppy" first. Just try to flesh it out a bit more, please?

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:36 am

"Sloppy" is the sort of word that, even when used in good faith, triggers flame wars. Now if you meant "subtle", that's OK

. Perhaps it's a question of how you perceive some of the ornamentaion, such as rolls, or the scratchy bouncing of the bow on the strings favoured by Seán Keane, Tommy Peoples and others which sounds strange to some people who don't realise that it's deliberate.

It's interesting to see that the whole military discipline, competitions, theory and formal training thing that I associate with the warpipes (GHB) is perceived as influencing Scottish fiddle music too.

I remember Brian Gallahar commenting on the fact that Johnny Doherty (Donegal fiddler and therefore closest to Scottish tradition) must have had some formal training because he used the "second position". "Arthur Darley", one of the tunes particularly associated with him, has a slightly baroque flavour to it too. Compare that with Junior Crehan's (Clare) apprenticeship described here: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/crehan.htm

_________________
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

[ This Message was edited by: Roger O'Keeffe on 2003-01-09 12:40 ]

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:47 pm

As far as I remember Doherty had a book on scottish fiddling and he learned the bowing out of that, I am not sure it was Scot Skinner, William MacKenzie Marshall, Neil Gow or another one, you can look it up in The Northern Fiddler or Caiominh Mac Aoidh's book.

I actually think most Irish fiddlers are a lot more subtle than scottish, add the the ones I mentioned above Padraig O Keeffe, Patrick Kelly etc. These people knew very well what they were doing and they did it well too.I have a taped interview with Sean Reid about fiddling in Clare, he is quite clear about the fact they all knew Neil Gow's music but that the 'classical' approach just wasn't considered suitable for Irish music.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2003-01-09 13:50 ]

theweirdscotsman · Post by **theweirdscotsman** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:53 pm

Maybe laid back is a better to describe my opinion of it then the word sloppy? Once again this is a huge generalization but he tunes seems much more easy going because of the fact that a lot more notes are slurred. That paired with rolls, triplets etc just really gives it a different feel to me. I'm not biased either way as I play highland pipes and irish flute because it seems like there is a time and place for both styles of music. I like how they are related but with some noticible differences. Get burned out with Alasdair Frasier or Charlie McKerron? Just grab one of Tommy's recordings!

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:19 pm

The only way I know to learn to play in a traditional Irish Style is to be able to hear it. To do that you must listen to lots and lots of Traditional Irish music-preferably from older players/recordings. When you can hear the Irish Style and play in the style, you will be able to tell the difference between that and traditional Scots music (and any other kind of music).
However with all the "fusion" and "cross-overs" happening now on the folk music scene it is becoming more and more difficult to define the parameters of Irish/Scots playing
Many young bands have Scots and Irish musicians playing together, and good performers will find a common ground in order to blend their sound.

energy · Post by **energy** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:25 am

I had thought you meant something along those lines. Yes, Irish is most certainly more laid back, it's "looser". When it comes to subtleties, I think that Irish music and Scottish music are very different.

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:51 pm

On 2003-01-09 12:36, Roger O'Keeffe wrote:
It's interesting to see that the whole military discipline, competitions, theory and formal training thing that I associate with the warpipes (GHB) is perceived as influencing Scottish fiddle music too.

I was one who had discussed the military influence on piping though did not mean to suggest it influenced the fiddle tradition. The Classical influence and the precision playing of the fiddle orchestra are likely stronger influences. Much of that has changed in the last 50 years.
Cheers,
Aaron

DerryMan · Post by **DerryMan** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:27 am

From the northern Irish coast one can see Scotland on a clear day. It's no coincidence that we Irish northeners are often taken for Scots abroad as our accents, music, temperament etc is all much the same (could be worse, lately we're taken for Aussies).

Northern Irish celts invaded Scotland way back, driving the local Picts further north and into the highlands. Hence the name Scotland from a Gaelic name for Ireland, Scotia. We've been toing and froing ever since. Hairs are split over whether the froing came before the toing

The Scottish bagpipes, or Irish war pipes were meant to put the fear of god into the enemy and courage into the fearful not to play melody. They do that admirably but of course there are people who would try to knock a tune out of a strangling cat.
Music further north, up on the Shetlands for example, is bleak as the landscape and much more Nordic like the population (50% Viking). Yet if you play Irish traditional music in a pub in Lerwick as I've had the neck to do most of the locals treat it as there own.
There is a hell of a lot music from these islands and beyond in Brittany now on the web in .abc format. Today this wealth of traditions feeds off one another as it has done many times before. What we now call Irish traditional music is just one energetic flow in this tide I believe. In short, there's no such thing as the pure drop.

regards,
Michael

boyd · Post by **boyd** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:41 pm

The folks over here seem to play a fair bit of Irish music in sessions....i've even heard the odd dyed-in-the-wool Scot complain that they can't find a Scots-only session.

Boyd

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:53 pm

Well, about complaining in sessions: Peter L once mentions that folks in Milton Malbay might give Jackie Daly a hard time for playing "that foreign music" when he starts a Kerry set.