ITM and Harmonic Minor Scale

[eric]

> I am curious about there being any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM

I've been through many of the old collections (thousands of tunes), and I don't recall any that would be considered harmonic minor scale.

I'm simplifying this and going from unreliable memory, but I think the closest you get is a rare tune in E minor, with D# used in a particular manner in the cadence (reel time: | Bee^d e4 ||). However, D natural features strongly enough in the tune that the D# is the accidental. It's far from common, and if I remember correctly, the rare occasions I've heard that device used by old traditional players, the note was more like sliding the E down to provide movement: it just barely reached the pitch of D# before already sliding back up to E; the effect was that it sounded like a note *between* E and D#.

The long and short of it is, a flute based around the harmonic minor scale is going to be less useful than one based around the major scale.

[talasiga]

.....
The long and short of it is, a flute based around the harmonic minor scale is going to be less useful than one based around the major scale.

The long and short of it is that this has never been a topic about which scale flute is most suitable for ITM. That is why we all have D major Irish flutes.

[eric]

> The long and short of it is that this has never been a topic about
> which scale flute is most suitable for ITM.

Apologies if I sounded gruff, that was not my intention.

[talasiga]

It wasn't gruffness I noticed but a very succinctly expressed statement which was, unfortunately, not salient to the topic. An apology won't fix it. You can edit your post if you like or you can withdraw the remark in a subsequent post (as they do in Parliament).

[GaryKelly]

It wasn't gruffness I noticed but a very succinctly expressed statement which was, unfortunately, not salient to the topic. An apology won't fix it. You can edit your post if you like or you can withdraw the remark in a subsequent post (as they do in Parliament).

Well, if commenting on a flute created (whether for top secret reasons or not) isn't salient to the topic, Oh, my goodness! What in the world? did you mention it for in your opening post?

I had a flute maker make me a little bamboo fife so that I could get a D harmonic minor scale without having to half hole or X finger. The fife goes:

Bb C# D E F G A Bb+ .....

I have my confidential reasons for having this fife made for me which I cannot mention here because this is the ITM forum. However, incidentally, I am curious about there being any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM or associated/corollary Celtic traditions.

If you wanted a discussion solely on 'songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM' it would've been far more salient of you simply to ask "are there any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM?" instead of BS-ing on pretentiously about some confidential piddling fife that no-one but yourself could possibly give a rat's 'arris about.

Of course, an apology won't fix your original pretentious post. You can edit it if you like or withdraw the cobblers about the fife that isn't salient in a subsequent post (as the pretentious onanists in Parliament do). I'm surprised anyone at all can be bothered trying to answer your questions when all you ever seem to do is take the piss or blow them off with supercilious sh*t like that quoted above.

[talasiga]

.......
Well, if commenting on a flute created (whether for top secret reasons or not) isn't salient to the topic, Oh, my goodness! What in the world? did you mention it for in your opening post?

I had a flute maker make me a little bamboo fife so that I could get a D harmonic minor scale without having to half hole or X finger. The fife goes:

Bb C# D E F G A Bb+ .....

I have my confidential reasons for having this fife made for me which I cannot mention here because this is the ITM forum. However, incidentally, I am curious about there being any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM or associated/corollary Celtic traditions.

If you wanted a discussion solely on 'songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM' it would've been far more salient of you simply to ask "are there any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM?" instead of BS-ing on pretentiously about some confidential piddling fife that no-one but yourself could possibly give a rat's 'arris about.

Of course, an apology won't fix your original pretentious post. You can edit it if you like or withdraw the cobblers about the fife that isn't salient in a subsequent post (as the pretentious onanists in Parliament do). I'm surprised anyone at all can be bothered trying to answer your questions when all you ever seem to do is take the piss or blow them off with supercilious sh*t like that quoted above.

You seem to have some sort of an inferiority complex that makes you swear. Perhaps you need to vist the South Pacific sometime. I, personally haven't been there but a little stint in NZ would do you the world of good. Some fresh air may even unclog your jam infested brain and help you to read between the lines.

For instance:-

My "I have my confidential reasons for having this fife made for me which I cannot mention here because this is the ITM forum."
means
I had the fife made for me for Indian and other exotic music performance and a discussion of that music (even as a point of comparison) is not relevant to the ITM forum as I have been brusquely told by many esteemed members here some many months ago.

My " However, incidentally, I am curious about there being any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM or associated/corollary Celtic traditions."
confirms
my interest and love of ITM (including ancient forms that may have been buried on account of British Imperial dominance) and my wish to play these on my fife. In fact this sentence of mine from my first post sounds very much like your suggestion, "are there any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM?"


There you go, Gary. You can always take many meanings from my posts. Why not take the meaning that doesn't sound supercilious or insulting?

Thanks for not swearing at me any more, abbreviated or not. Ta.

[SteveShaw]

Talasiga a écrit:

<<You seem to have some sort of an inferiority complex that makes you swear. Perhaps you need to vist the South Pacific sometime. I, personally haven't been there but a little stint in NZ would do you the world of good. Some fresh air may even unclog your jam infested brain and help you to read between the lines.>>

Hmm. I have relatives and friends in both Oz and NZ who are always trying to get me to go to sample the life "out" there because it would do me the world of good. Perhaps it's the lack of imperialist British dominance in the past in that region that's so refreshing As a matter of fact I shall be in Perth in a month's time so perhaps I'll let you know whether the experience has unclogged my clogged-up brain when I get back. It's good to think I won't come across much "swearing" your end as well. In the meantime there's more than enough fresh air in Swindon and Cornwall this weekend with our howling northerly - I can play chords on my harmonica by holding it up in the breeze. Only two, mind you, but that's two-thirds as good as most ITM guitar accompanists!

Cheers

Steve

[talasiga]

....I can play chords on my harmonica by holding it up in the breeze. Only two, mind you, but that's two-thirds as good as most ITM guitar accompanists!
....

Harmonica? Isn't that what the Germans call an auto harp?

[GaryKelly]

Perhaps you need to vist the South Pacific sometime. I, personally haven't been there but a little stint in NZ would do you the world of good. Some fresh air may even unclog your jam infested brain and help you to read between the lines.

I've spent many a happy time in Auckland and the North Island, thanks very much. The small town of Howick is particularly dear to my heart. You should go there yourself, Kiwis and Maoris share a common and peculiar fondness for 'Islanders' which I'm sure you'd find very educational.

And of course I didn't swear at you, as anyone with functional eyeballs and the ability to read will know. Perhaps you simply read my mind? If telepathy is indeed one of your talents you might consider this:

. Which as you'll know contained no 'abbreviations' either.

Eric answered your question.

I've been through many of the old collections (thousands of tunes), and I don't recall any that would be considered harmonic minor scale.

And you, Talasiga, responded with your characteristic complete lack of charm, wit, intelligence and common courtesy, and to top it all you then had the gall to demand that eric edit or delete his post! Well, I refer you to my 'unabbreviated' message above, which are my last words on the matter.

[SteveShaw]

talasiga writes:

<<Harmonica? Isn't that what the Germans call an auto harp?>>

No.

Steve

[talasiga]

Harmonica? Isn't that what the Austrians call a button accordion?

[SteveShaw]

Fife? Isn't that what the Brits call a banana?

Cheers!

Steve

[talasiga]

Harmonic Minor! Isn't that what the South Asians call Kirwani and the Eastern Europeans call _________________ ?????

[fluti31415]

Thank you for your response Ben - I suspected as much. Still, as you say, someone else may have something more so I'll hang around.

Harmonic minor is really the result of cadence-based music (I - IV - V - I), because it imports the raised seventh into the minor scale, accounting for the major third in the dominant chord that is also the leading note into the tonic. I don't believe that ITM is built on western-art music and its cadence structure (although many people try to impose the cadence structur on ITM, including such low forms as piano accompanyists). Anyway, the absence of cadence-based harmonic structures explains why harmonic minor doesn't make much sense ITM and isn't of much use.

I am not able to understand this. These are my hurdles:-

Please forgive me if I am "butting in" on the conversation. I have learned a lot from what you have all said so far, and I hope that my attempts to give a very simplified explanation of a few concepts is helpful.

1. You say, ..... imports the raised seventh ......
What is a raised 7th? The 7th in a major scale is a semitone below the tonic and the major scale is the referent for all the other scales.
The 7th cannot be raised in terms of the current 12 semitone division of the octave. The 7th can only be diminished.

OK, think of playing some instrument that can't get the full chromatic scale. For example, a piano with only the white keys. Or think of playing a whistle, but not being able to half-hole in order to get the full chromatic scale. If you have heard me play, it's not so hard to imagine .

If your instrument is in D major, like a flute or a whistle, then the notes you'll get are
D F# G A B C# D -- That is a D major scale. Notice that there is a whole step between all of the notes except between the third and fourth notes, and again between the seventh and eighth notes. That half step between the 7th and 8th notes is what makes us want to complete the scale, so it is called a leading note -- it "leads" us up to the D, which completes the scale.

Think of it like this -- if you were to sing "Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Ti." wouldn't it drive you crazy? Wouldn't you want to hear this completed by singing the Do all over again?

Whether people from hundreds of years ago heard this the same way we do is something that is interesting to wonder about. I certainly don't know the answer to that.

Now, let's get back to that flute. Suppose that you are an itinerant musician, and you have that flute I described above, in the key of D. You find another musician in the next town who has a whistle built on the key of B. If you want to play with that person, then you would play tunes built on B. But the scale you'd be using would be

B C# D E F# G A B. Note that the seventh note of your scale is *not* one half step below the B. The scale that you would be playing in this case is called the B Aeolian (I hope I spelled that correctly) mode, which is known in modern times as the B natural minor scale. You can't get that leading note -- the half step from the 7th note of the scale to the 8th note of the scale, so your music will have a different flavor to it than it would with that leading note. You are playing in a different mode -- both figuratively and literally.

Now, if you could find a way to play an A# instead of an A, you still won't be playing all of the same notes as that guy with the B whistle, but you will have a closer flavor of sound, because you'll have the leading note. That A# is the raised 7th.

I was taught that this is easier for singers to sing, although I am not a singer, so I can't verify that. I was also taught that using a raised 7th is more natural sounding for our modern, Western ears, although I have my doubts. The description of harmony that started this sounds like it makes more sense to me. (although with the leading tone, it could be a chicken and egg thing!) At any rate, if you play a tune that is in a Dorian key, you'll probably think that it sounds kind of "ethnic" in some way, so maybe there is some truth to that.

2. You say, ..... the dominant chord .....
And which do you consider is the dominant chord in, for example, G harmonic minor scale:-
G min; A min; C min; D maj. ; D#/Eb maj. or F#/Gb maj. ?
And why?

The dominant chord is the chord that is built on the fifth note of the scale. So in G minor, that would be a D chord. Because of that theory of there being a modern preference to include that leading 7th that I mentioned in part 1., the dominant chord should include the leading note. In G, the leading note is an F#. So the dominant chord for Gminor should have an F# in it. That means it has to have a D (fifth note of the scale, to make it dominant) and an F# (leading note, so our ears will hear it want to resolve up to the G) in it, so it has to be a D major chord. Often, other notes are added as well, to make it a 7th or 9th chord, but the barest of bare bones that you need are the fifith note of the key you are in (D in this case) and the leading tone of the key you are in (F# in this case).

3. You say, .....the major third in the dominant chord .....
None of the chords obtained in a harmonic minor scale result in the 7th being the third note in the chord. What do you meamn by this?

The seventh of the scale is the third note of the dominant chord, which is the chord built on the 5th note of the scale.

[Crysania]

Harmonic minor is really the result of cadence-based music (I - IV - V - I), because it imports the raised seventh into the minor scale, accounting for the major third in the dominant chord that is also the leading note into the tonic.

Yep that's exactly it...it's a "scale" that results from an alteration to the harmony, hence the term "harmonic minor." It is also noticeably absent in most western art music. The "melodic" form of minor is often the basis for the melody (hence the name for this scale as well) in western art music...in the melodic minor, the 6th and 7th scale degrees are raised to push the way up to the tonic pitch...on the way back down they're lowered back to their natural positions in order to push back down to the dominant note.

~Crysania