Are than any tricks to tell which pitch a whistle ect is in?

[Martin Milner]

Jack typing after one too many Pepsi's.

If I didn't know that you know Jack and I didn't know that you know that I know Jack I might think you might be using Pepsi as a substitute for something stronger but as we both know and both know that each other know that Jack is teetotal such a misunderstanding would never arise. Clearly.

I've read that sentence four times and it still doesn't make any sense to me, I think I need a pepsi!!

Goodness me, I thought it was simple enough. Let me explain.

Jack is teetotal. Susan knows Jack. Martin knows Jack. While Susan and Martin have not met in person, they know each other both through reputation and through the medium of The Chiff, and a certain rapport has developed in which either party may use occasional euphemisms to avoid shocking the younger, tenderer, and generally more easily shockable members of the aforementioned online poststructural community. Susan knows Jack is teetotal. Martin knows Jack is teetotal. Susan knows Martin knows Jack. Martin knows Susan knows Jack. Susan knows Martin knows Jack is teetotal. Martin knows Susan knows Jack is teetotal. Under the aforestated consideration of shared knowledge, the use of the word Pepsi, which under other conditions might be employed as a euphemism for an alcoholic beverage, cannot be mistaken by either of the parties to mean anything other that what it says on the tin, Pepsi. Or Maybe Coca Cola. But probably Pepsi.


Ah, by ect you meant etc. Now I see.

The fiddler's joy is that he doesn't need to know the key before selecting which instrument to play on. I'll play this on my (drum roll) fiddle! All the known notes available, plus an infinite number of possible variants (and don't my longsuffering neighbours know that!).

[djm]

That's because, unless you have perfect pitch, the process invariably involves guessing and checking.

You're not going to like this, but one does not "have" perfect pitch. It is a learned skill, like picking up tunes. You can pick up any musicians' magazine and see ads for "Teach yourself Perfect Pitch" courses, but basically it is sitting down and learning the sound of each note, much like you're doing with tunes, until you start to recognize the notes on any instrument. The courses then go on to two-note, three-note, etc. chords, but these are a bit harder to play on whistle.

djm

[sturob]

Amen, DJM!

I used to tease someone I went to college with who had perfect pitch that he was lucky he was alive now, since he would have been really out of tune 100 years ago.

I think the more useful idea is that of relative pitch. Meaning, kinda, that once someone gives you one pitch you can easily find the rest, and hold on to them. Maybe not after you sleep, but for a whole day, easily.

Jack was wondering about how to tell. I guess part of it comes from experience. The timbre (or something, je ne sais quoi) of the different keys is a little, well, different. The easiest thing is probably to take a whistle that you're familiar with and see what notes go with whatever you're trying to learn.

Actually, to obviate the problem, Jack, even easier is not to play with the recordings. You can learn it in a different pitch and then figure it out once you know it. Whistles aren't so flexible that I could believe you'd learn a tune in completely the wrong key . . .

And learning without playing with the recording (or person) is good for you. Builds character.

Stuart

[MurphyStout]

The fiddler's joy is that he doesn't need to know the key before selecting which instrument to play on. I'll play this on my (drum roll) fiddle! All the known notes available, plus an infinite number of possible variants (and don't my longsuffering neighbours know that!).

Well Martin, I will have you know that I've taken some serious thought into taking up the fiddle now that I've tamed the whistle and flute, but I don't see how that fixes the problem? I mean a fiddler cannot switch keys/pitch on a tune while he's playing it, can he? I would think that it would all be muscle memory and you couldn't really adapt that quickly, right?

Whistles aren't so flexible that I could believe you'd learn a tune in completely the wrong key . . .

And learning without playing with the recording (or person) is good for you. Builds character.

Stuart

Stuart, I said I could almost learn a tune in the wrong key but a few of the notes wouldn't line up so I figured out I was playing the wrong keyed whistle. And how should I go about learning a tune without listening/playing with the recording?

[skh]

And how should I go about learning a tune without listening/playing with the recording?

I sing/lilt with the recording, then learn to lilt by heart, and finally transfer to whistle or harp, going back at each step to the recording if necessary. I don't play along until the very end.

Whatever works best for you, though

Sonja

[sturob]

Stuart, I said I could almost learn a tune in the wrong key but a few of the notes wouldn't line up so I figured out I was playing the wrong keyed whistle. And how should I go about learning a tune without listening/playing with the recording?

Well, the way I do it is I listen to the recording until I have the tune memorized, then play it on the flute. It actually didn't occur to me until recently that people would actually play along with the recording.

But you have to understand my background. My first instrument is the highland bagpipe. There's no way you could play along with recordings you want to learn, at least, not with pipes (but maybe with a well-tuned practice chanter). So I just got used to memorizing the tune, and then play it by ear.

That's all I meant. Does it make sense? I'm so unorthodox that I do have a copy of Amazing Slow Downer to learn stuff from recordings, but I always end up changing the key to fit whatever instrument I pick up. Sometimes you just feel like Eb, you know?

As far as "tricks" go, I'd have to say that I don't think there are any tricks. Someone mentioned that tunes resolve to the tonic of the key . . . that's not always true, and often isn't the case. The lucky thing for learning flute stuff is that people nearly always play on D, Eb, or Bb instruments. It's easy to tell from the timbre if it's a Bb, but D and Eb can sound very similar. For those, it's probably easiest just to try both. Whistle is another matter entirely, since you can have a chromatic collection of whistles from pedal tones to the stratosphere. In that case, if you don't have access to a keyboard, start with D and work from there.

I guess I'm being characteristically unhelpful . . . and for that, I apologize.

Stuart

[Wombat]

I mean a fiddler cannot switch keys/pitch on a tune while he's playing it, can he? I would think that it would all be muscle memory and you couldn't really adapt that quickly, right?

Wrong. Any really competent fiddler would be able to change keys instantly without fuss or bother. Often all this invloves is moving the same fingering a few notches up or down the neck.

Some folk fiddlers might not play in more than a few keys but would be able to jump from one to another without any trouble. If you find you can't do this, then your technique is simply inadequate for what you want to do which is as much a fault in folk music as it is in any other music.

Far too often on these forums people fail to distinguish between learning to play an instrument and learning to play Irish music on it. Nobody starts playing 'in an Irish style' at their first fiddle lesson. If you learn fiddle, you should, I think practice scales. If this sounds too faormal you can practice them playing with floating intonation.

[Martin Milner]

I mean a fiddler cannot switch keys/pitch on a tune while he's playing it, can he? I would think that it would all be muscle memory and you couldn't really adapt that quickly, right?

Wrong. Any really competent fiddler would be able to change keys instantly without fuss or bother. Often all this invloves is moving the same fingering a few notches up or down the neck.

Some folk fiddlers might not play in more than a few keys but would be able to jump from one to another without any trouble. If you find you can't do this, then your technique is simply inadequate for what you want to do which is as much a fault in folk music as it is in any other music.

Far too often on these forums people fail to distinguish between learning to play an instrument and learning to play Irish music on it. Nobody starts playing 'in an Irish style' at their first fiddle lesson. If you learn fiddle, you should, I think practice scales. If this sounds too faormal you can practice them playing with floating intonation.

Batty said it. Piece of cake switching keys on a fiddle, almost as easy as switching chords on a guitar. Any tune you can play on a whistle, you can shift down a fifth and play on the bottom three strings with the same fingering but you're playing in a new key.

If I hear an A in a tune, and I can find it on my fiddle (which I usually can), I can figure out the rest of the notes relative to that.

Yes, muscle memory play a big part in playing fiddle, but having a good ear plays a bigger part, or you'll be memorising placing your fingers in the wrong places.

Practising scales in very valuble, a bit boring but can be livened up by practising bowing techniques at the same time.

Hie thee hence and get thyself a fiddle Jack. You're young enough to learn quickly, you have a good ear so it shouldn't be torture.

[colomon]

Err.... and transposing up or down a fifth is going to help him distinguish between C, D, and Eb whistles how?

Not to mention that I don't understand why trying to play along using different whistles to see what works is bad, but learning an entire other instrument so you can play along and see what works is good. Not that learning fiddle would be a bad thing, but it sort of seems like massive overkill for the question at hand.

[Azalin]

Well, if you're not a theory guy (if yer like me!), the simplest way I find is to have whistles in all keys. Then, try to play along with each of them. If you end up having to half hole on the whistle you're playing with, 90% chances are it's the wrong whistle. With time the process is gonna get faster as it takes only 4-5 notes really to sort out the right key/whistle.

Sometimes you might end up being able to play with 2 or more whistles. For example, a C and F whistle can both manage tunes in C, (as D and G, tunes in G!), but the highest note and lowest note should set you straight.

With time your ear develop and you can notice notes in a tune that are out of the D/G/Em scale, like FNat and G#, and it helps u find the key/whistle faster.

[Wombat]

Err.... and transposing up or down a fifth is going to help him distinguish between C, D, and Eb whistles how?

Martin was simply adding an illustration to a general point I made in the post he quoted. If you read in context, you'll notice that he was agreeing with my point. As I explained, to play in a close key you simply move your pattern up or down the neck without changing fingerings. If you are playing in D with no open strings you simply move everything up a half step for Eb. No new learning involved.

Not to mention that I don't understand why trying to play along using different whistles to see what works is bad, but learning an entire other instrument so you can play along and see what works is good. Not that learning fiddle would be a bad thing, but it sort of seems like massive overkill for the question at hand.

It would be if that were the only advantage. It's possible to learn theory without playing a chromatic and chordal instrument but very much harder. You simply can't hear the things about chords that you are being taught or compare the sound of an Eb major scale played straight after a D major scale. You don't have to play well to be able to use the instrument for the purpose of finding the key of a whistle quickly. Guitar or piano would be even better. Murph mentioned that he often finds one or two notes are out. If he went with his first guess and tried playing a chordal accompaniment to the tune on guitar his mistake would be immediately obvious.

It's all about just how much you really want to know about music. If you're happy getting by with minimal theory, that's fine, but I do believe you'll regret not learning theory later if you start getting seriously good. I don't think anyone would choose fiddle for the help it gives with deciphering keys but, if, like Martin, you already play, then that's what you would use. I play keyboards, guitar and members of mandolin/bouzouki family so I just work things out on whatever is nearest at the time. I might try a D whistle first since they are so common, but if that failed I'd reach straight away for a chromatic instrument.

[Martin Milner]

Err.... and transposing up or down a fifth is going to help him distinguish between C, D, and Eb whistles how?

Not to mention that I don't understand why trying to play along using different whistles to see what works is bad, but learning an entire other instrument so you can play along and see what works is good. Not that learning fiddle would be a bad thing, but it sort of seems like massive overkill for the question at hand.

OK, you got me. I wasn't being 100% serious. :roll:

However, knowing Jack well from meeting him & hearing him play at Wille Clancy Week, I know he has the talent, interest and dedication to work at an instrument, and it's a lot easier to learn a new instrument a) when you're young like Jack and b) when you have played other instruments & music already under your belt. So if Jack is interested in learning fiddle as he said, better to start now aged around twenty than in ten years time.

[colomon]

As I explained, to play in a close key you simply move your pattern up or down the neck without changing fingerings. If you are playing in D with no open strings you simply move everything up a half step for Eb. No new learning involved.

True -- but you're glossing over a key point here -- "with no open strings". Irish style fiddle uses open strings. Your assertion that no one learns Irish style as a starting point is simply wrong. People start directly in that style -- indeed, it is the traditional way of doing things. Martin's example of switching strings is what most Irish fiddlers do to transpose, in my experience -- if they can't do that, they work out the tune in first position (or whatever it's called) with new fingerings.

It's all about just how much you really want to know about music. If you're happy getting by with minimal theory, that's fine, but I do believe you'll regret not learning theory later if you start getting seriously good. I don't think anyone would choose fiddle for the help it gives with deciphering keys but, if, like Martin, you already play, then that's what you would use. I play keyboards, guitar and members of mandolin/bouzouki family so I just work things out on whatever is nearest at the time. I might try a D whistle first since they are so common, but if that failed I'd reach straight away for a chromatic instrument.

To each his own. I've got sixteen years more experience playing chromatic instruments than I have playing whistle, and a fine grasp of music theory -- but I would never try to figure out the key of a tune using something that was fully chromatic. To me, that just makes it more confusing, not less. The patterns of notes needed for Irish music just fall much more naturally to my fingers on whistle. And being able to play along at speed is half of the battle.

[colomon]

I guess it all depends on what you are listening to. I listen to a lot of pure drop stuff these days, mostly from Sligo. 99% of it is in D or Eb. I almost always have whistles of both sorts within easy reach -- one of each in my car, on my desk, and in my backpack. Trying both keys is completely painless, and is obviously the easiest way to figure out what a recording uses.

The exceptions are easy enough to know. Mary Bergin uses all sorts of keys (and at least one of her albums lists which whistle is used on each track). Kevin Crawford has a Bb flute. Lunasa and Flook like F whistle. Killian Vallelly(sp?) sometimes uses a C chanter. Pre-1975 whistle recordings tend to use C whistles. If a tune is in D but minor you need a C whistle.

These simple observations cover virtually every track I've ever tried to play along with, and hundreds and hundreds of classic Irish recordings. (Plus Newfoundland recordings, too!) They are definitely biased towards flute and whistle, but that is my primary area of interest, and the observations work for quite a lot of fiddle and accordion recordings anyway.

Given these sorts of recordings, it seems utterly silly to try to develop fully chromatic pitch recognition, or learn a new instrument, just to figure out the key of a tune. Even wandering over to the piano seems kind of pointless if you have a nice bag of whistles.

Of course, if you are not listening to particularly traditional Irish music, or you've run into a whistle player fascinated by different keys or something, your milage may very.

[Wombat]

mmmmmmmmm