The Dubliners... your opinion

[Nanohedron]

Here in the states though I guess it can be complicated as to what people consider to be real Irish music.

No kidding. I remember when a piper was performing and a member of the audience came up to him and said that the "Irish hip-hop" (her actual words) was nice and all but couldn't he play some real Irish music like Danny Boy? That was a fraught moment indeed.

[alurker]

Saying something like that displays a lack of musical knowledge which is neither uncommon nor particularly hazardous.

Saying it to a piper displays a lack of knowledge of human nature as well as a lack of sense of danger.

I hope she made it to hospital OK and that her stay was reasonably short.

[Björn]

In ye olden days (in Sweden, before the Internets) the only Irish music you get your hands on in record store was The Dubliners and, if you were lucky The Chieftains. Nowadays you have access to the best players online (as I´m writing this I'm listening to RnaG. To be able to listen Irish music anytime you want...). I just wish this technology had been around when I was studying Irish. My point is that that the way into Irish music for most people (in most countries of the world) is through The Dubliners. The Chieftains and The Pogues. I haven´t listened to any of those bands in many years, but it was them that lit the spark and my life would'nt have been the same without them. For me, playing the music has made all the difference. If I hadn´t started on the highland pipes I would never have met the beautiful girl (a dancer) that´s sleeping in my bed as I type this. I´m rambling a bit (six in the morning here( but for me, getting a taste of folk through the Pogues (which has since led to an appreciation of many other types of traditional music) has made all the difference. It's easy to rag on the commercially successful bands, but they are the gateway to a deeper appreciation of the music.

[anniemcu]

...It's easy to rag on the commercially successful bands, but they are the gateway to a deeper appreciation of the music.

Isn't that the truth, though?!

Count me another Dubliners fan.

Granted, there is almost always a commercialization, usually so as to be able to actually sell the albums, but that doesn't necessarily end the value of the traditional aspects of it. Whatever attracts people's attention to the genre, and inspires them to look for more, learn the tunes, reach deeper into the history and appreciate the players, is a good thing... even... (cough, duck) 'River Dance' has brought Irish Music to the fore when it might otherwise have dropped below most people's musical horizons.

[Nanohedron]

Saying something like that displays a lack of musical knowledge which is neither uncommon nor particularly hazardous.

True, but the "Irish hip-hop" bit was particularly special, I think.

Saying it to a piper displays a lack of knowledge of human nature as well as a lack of sense of danger.

I hope she made it to hospital OK and that her stay was reasonably short.

She left unscathed. The piper - a reasonably goodnatured man - was, I fear, scarred for life.

[whistleboy]

Let's put it this way. IMHO, the reason we still have a sites like Chiff & Fipple, The Session, Sessioneer, and the myriad of other sites specifically related to the Irish tradition is because of the 60's groups like the Dubliners, The Bothy Band, The Clancy Brothers, and later the Chieftains and others. Without their influence of bringing ITRAD, be it songs or tunes, into the mainstream of folk traditions, we wouldn't be sitting here right now discussing this. I know groups like this are why I (a midwest boy with a Czech background that happened to like Irish music) got into the tradition in the first place. The idea of the Dubliners not being traditional is just absurd.

OK, I'll go back into "Lurk" mode now.

Thanks,
-Clay

[anniemcu]

Let's put it this way. IMHO, the reason we still have a sites like Chiff & Fipple, The Session, Sessioneer, and the myriad of other sites specifically related to the Irish tradition is because of the 60's groups like the Dubliners, The Bothy Band, The Clancy Brothers, and later the Chieftains and others. Without their influence of bringing ITRAD, be it songs or tunes, into the mainstream of folk traditions, we wouldn't be sitting here right now discussing this. I know groups like this are why I (a midwest boy with a Czech background that happened to like Irish music) got into the tradition in the first place. The idea of the Dubliners not being traditional is just absurd.

OK, I'll go back into "Lurk" mode now.

Thanks,
-Clay

Right you are, and glad you de-cloaked to say it!

And if you wife and girlfriend ever meet, may they live happily ever after.

[flynnieous]

Let's put it this way. IMHO, the reason we still have a sites like Chiff & Fipple, The Session, Sessioneer, and the myriad of other sites specifically related to the Irish tradition is because of the 60's groups like the Dubliners, The Bothy Band, The Clancy Brothers, and later the Chieftains and others. Without their influence of bringing ITRAD, be it songs or tunes, into the mainstream of folk traditions, we wouldn't be sitting here right now discussing this. I know groups like this are why I (a midwest boy with a Czech background that happened to like Irish music) got into the tradition in the first place. The idea of the Dubliners not being traditional is just absurd.

OK, I'll go back into "Lurk" mode now.

Thanks,
-Clay

Just a minor point, but the Chieftains' first recording was in 1963, whereas the Bothy Band's first was in 1975. The Clancy's started out in the mid 50s, of course.

[Boody]

I have to agree, the dubliners, a chieftains record and the pouges got me into Irish trad. I love trad music, but I love punk too, so I don't see whats wrong with flogging molly or the tossers.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

When you hear the early Dubliners recordings of songs like 'All for me grog' or 'Love is pleasing', they were songs that were brought back into the publics awareness. I can remember as a boy of 8 or so years old, my parents coming home from the pub on a Saturday night and having a sing-along. The Dubliners songs were the type of songs sung at these get togethers. It was not as if the Dubliners pulled out these songs and started singing them and then the audiences just picked up on them.
The point is, the audiences were already familiar with the songs and when you hear the audience sing along on the live recordings, it is because the songs are old favourites.
They may seem cliched to folk not really in the know, but the Dubliners reawakened a lot of people to their singing/musical heritage.
The Dub's are fantastic musicians to boot, just have a listen to any of their instrumental tracks, The Musical Priest/The teetotaller, The Belfast hornpipe, The Maid behind the bar, etc, etc.
'Nuff said.

[s1m0n]

They may seem cliched to folk not really in the know, but the Dubliners reawakened a lot of people to their singing/musical heritage.
The Dub's are fantastic musicians to boot, just have a listen to any of their instrumental tracks, The Musical Priest/The teetotaller, The Belfast hornpipe, The Maid behind the bar, etc, etc.
'Nuff said.

Somewhere I read a discussion of the differences between sessions in Ireland and the US; one common difference is that in North America, thje ethic appears to exist that 'sessions are only tunes, whereas in Ireland, a pub session is about fun, not only tunes, as is as likely to have a song now and then or even a funny recitation along with sets of tunes.

Disdain for the Dubliners comes from the untraditional wing of Irish trad, and cprings from the false belief that trad consists only of tunes.

[mukade]

Traditions aren't made by stodgy traditionalists who thinks tradition is something that doesn't ever change and shouldn't ever be allowed to.

You have it the wrong way.
Traditions are conservative by nature. They have to be to survive.

Traditions also need innovators to keep them relevant, but it is the thousands of anonymous, amateur musicians that keep a tradition alive.

Mukade

[awildman]

I like the Dubs. One of the reasons i got into Irish music.

I've never understood the obsession to label things so. A hundred years ago i seriously doubt Irish musicians got together to debate whether something was "trad" or not. The very fact that we're having this discussion indicates that trad changes. And where did this divergence of "folk" and "trad" begin? I'd also like to point out the obvious: What traditional-type band has not tried to push the envelope in one way or another? Yes, some have done so to the extreme. But we're talking about a show for the general public versus music for musicians. (This of course doesn't mean that the band cannot play "trad", they just cater to their audience when playing for their audience. The whole expressing yourself vs playing for your audience argument, I suppose.) Opposite ends of the spectrum, here. Personally, I am pretty accepting. I've always sort of filed traditional instrumental music under the "folk" banner anyway. Music of the common people, generally. Whether sung or otherwise.

[WyoBadger]

Discussions of trad vs. (whatever you label whatever is not trad) always sort of interest me. I can sort of see both sides.

I did a concert with a couple friends last summer, mostly Scottish stuff, quite a bit of Irish, and a bit of "Celtic flavored" bluegrassy/folksy/singer-songwriter type stuff. Whistle, pipes, bodhran, guitars, mando, a touch of banjo here and there.

During a break after a slow air/dance tune set, an older gent known as a local history buff came up and gave me a completely unexpected compliment: "That's the first authentic cowboy music I've ever heard performed around here." His point was that contrary to popular belief, cowboys and other Western pioneers--at least the ones on the high plains-Oregon Trail-cattle drive scene--did not settle the Rocky Mountain West playing guitars. They were too cumbersome to carry on horseback.

In his words, "this area of the west was settled with concertinas, whistles, mandolins, and fiddles." He said a lot of the pioneers were first or second generation immigrants, and they loved the old tunes. If you read any of John and Allan Lomax's excellent books, they make the same point.

Long story to make a short point. IMO, there's a difference between being a trad musician and being a reenactor. Reenactors recreate a specific time period, with only instruments, tunes, etc. used at that time and place. Fascinating and lots of fun when done acurately.

But traditions aren't always like that. Traditions change with time. They evolve as people move around and mix. Things get added and taken away. That's the way it should be. Otherwise, we'd have no fiddles or whistles (among other things) in IrTrad. And were would that leave us? It's too horrifying to contemplate.

Confession time, before I go: I dearly hope to be part of a commercially successful band someday, and have detractors who debate whether I am trad or not. Also, I enjoy both Leahy and the Wicked Tinkers. But perhaps that's for another thread.

Tom

[Will O'B]

Long story to make a short point. IMO, there's a difference between being a trad musician and being a reenactor. Reenactors recreate a specific time period, with only instruments, tunes, etc. used at that time and place. Fascinating and lots of fun when done acurately.

But traditions aren't always like that. Traditions change with time. They evolve as people move around and mix. Things get added and taken away. That's the way it should be. Otherwise, we'd have no fiddles or whistles (among other things) in IrTrad. And were would that leave us? It's too horrifying to contemplate.

A point/opinion I have tried to make several times before. Although I believe you did a better job of expressing the ideas. Thanks.

Now, after having said that... One of the driving forces that pushed Francis O'Neill was that he saw the tradition being lost and displaced and diluted as his fellow immigrants spread across America's cities, towns and wilderness. He realized that the mixing of the different cultures in America were changing the music, and if it was to survive there needed to be a written record (not a perfect way of sustaining an aural tradition perhaps). Of course, there was also the fact that many Irish-Americans at that time wanted to distance themselves from the things (such as the music) that made them appear less "American-like" to their nonIrish neighbors. If the music had been left to "change with time" we may have lost a great deal - not all perhaps, but a great deal, nonetheless.

I think that change is good when its an outgrowth of the music's traditional roots.

Now back to the original topic. (Sorry for the O'Neill lecture) I think IMHO that groups like the Dubliners are fine. I see them as an outgrowth of the music's traditional roots. Appealing to the common man (and woman)--which is where the tradition began in the first place.