Recorded Tunes --> Standard Versions?

[Brian Boru]

Over the past year or so I have been trying to learn ITM tunes to play at the local session. I have looked at tune books, checked the internet etc. and one frustration that continually is that I will learn the tune one way and the other players do it differently. Since I am still a beginner I am not always able to instantly switch to the group consensus on how the tune should go.

I have also been trying to listen to recordings like Altan, Bothy Band etc. and I realized that most of the tunes versions I hear in the sessions can be found on recordings. So I am thinking that I would be better off learning the versions on the records and not bothering with the variations until later when I become bored.

All of this has made me wonder: "Is recording forcing a de facto standard on Irish tunes"? Much like video/audio media has been blamed for killing regional accents, is recording tunes reducing the number of variations being played?

[Cayden]

before taking this further: try clear your head first on variants/different versions/settings and variations.

[Dee Whistler]

I think there are some recordings that have been very influential. For example "Maid on the Green" jig has been recorded by Patsy Touhey, Willie Clancy and Mary Bergin to say a few, and all those are a bit different versions and I think all have been very influential to regular session players also.

However the vast majority of recordings are just one interpration/representation of a given tune, like you would hear in a good session (althhough in sessions people might improvise a bit more).

And then there are recordings that are far from "standard".

Also it might be case that when a great artist does a new recording, it is far from standard and that is the reason it is so acclaimed, and after that it becomes a standard.

I would suggest you to listen as much as possible the old masters, and gradually more recent ones (that's what I'm trying to do, not having any true ITM sessions around).

[djm]

I believe I understand where you're coming from, BB, but I think it really depends on who the people are in your local session and what their backgrounds are. I'm sure its very different over in Ireland, but here, there are few people who are deeply versed in Irish music, or only in Irish music, so right away you get a mixed bag of several styles of music emerging at a session. Then too, if the people at the session are not big on being super-traditionalists, they may only prefer versions of tunes from modern groups if those newer versions are more accessible to their understanding. For sure if there are no Upipers in the local group, it is unlikely any of them will be familiar with piping versions of the tunes.

On the positive side, people who are really good at remembering tunes slowly build a repertoire of versions of tunes over the years, and some can even remember who plays which version when they sit down to play with different groups. Amazing!

djm

[Lightheaded Mike]

At our session, we developed the habit of playing the variation chosen by the person leading the set. Is it possible to do that in your session, Brian?
Sometimes it means going over it slowly beforehand.
Your frustration sounds like it will work itself out with time spent at session and not so much with finding the proper dots from various sources, and like DJM says, I find it a real kick when we catch ourselves playing a particular setting/variation based on who's there and familiarity with how they play their tunes. And doing so on the fly. Just takes time.
As for the question of recordings forcing a sense of standardization: with so many trad recordings available, and with the obsessive tendency (to listen and play) of tradheads at most sessions, I can't imagine that the effect of recording can impose one standard.
Mike

[pkev]

Hi there,

I would advocate that traditional music needs as many different characters and personalities as possible, including yours, so I wouldn't
feel frustrated. The last thing I would want to be is a `session` or `recording` clone.

Cheers
pkev

[brotherwind]

just a question. Isn't it legitimate to play the version/+/-variations you like most, just as an expression of your own style and taste?

With so many recordings around, you only stay "unstained" if you live in a remote place - e.g. island - where you and your friends - just sad to think that you're just on your own - are the sole keepers of an old tradition. Provided none of you has access to recordings, live performers from outside etc..

Or is this too lax a view?

brotherwind

[Brian Boru]

just a question. Isn't it legitimate to play the version/+/-variations you like most, just as an expression of your own style and taste?

With so many recordings around, you only stay "unstained" if you live in a remote place - e.g. island - where you and your friends - just sad to think that you're just on your own - are the sole keepers of an old tradition. Provided none of you has access to recordings, live performers from outside etc..

Or is this too lax a view?

brotherwind

I think it is legitimate to play the variation I like the most. However in sessions with crowd noise most people can't hear what I am playing anyway (bonus when I make mistakes) so they play the one they are most familiar with. Some sessions are smaller, and with less crowd and then we can talk about tune variations.

[pancelticpiper]

The ethos of the session, to me, is to have everyone playing together as tightly as possible, but there is also plenty of room for variations which do not clash with what everyone else is playing.
That's why the best way to learn tunes to play at your session is to bring a recording device. That way you are learning both the tunes and the versions which suit your session. You may not end up playing the tune note-for-note the way others do, but you will end up with a version that blends with the session.
Seems that, when making a studio recording, Irish musicians often go out of their way to record tunes that are NOT common session tunes, or if they are, to record versions which are as different as possible from the usual session version. On the other hand, as mentioned above, recordings of prominent players sometimes influences what is played at sessions.
I would record your own session, then work on the tunes at home. If you have difficultly figuring out a portion of the tune you can always refer to a written source in a book or on line, but don't hesitate to alter the written version to conform to your session's version.
I learned a lovely version of The Gold Ring from a Mick O Brien album, only to discover that absolutely nobody plays it that way. I had to completely relearn the tune (the version played at sessions around here is like the one the Cheiftans recorded).

[Nanohedron]

I learned a lovely version of The Gold Ring from a Mick O Brien album, only to discover that absolutely nobody plays it that way. I had to completely relearn the tune (the version played at sessions around here is like the one the Cheiftans recorded).

Mine I learned from a recording of Matt Molloy (minus the seventh part which I had to go to the dots to get). Fortunately that setting seems to fit okay with the way the tune is done hereabouts. I never asked what source people got their versions of it from; we just play it. I'm a major fan of Mick O'Brien, though, and so I'll be looking for that one. Have a name for the recording? I'm not spending enough money, lately.

[bensdad]

It was on Flags of Dublin

[sbhikes]

It seems to me that on the recordings I have at least, nobody every plays a tune in a "standard" way, whatever that might be. They all try to jazz it up somehow. Some are particularly fond of sticking in Fnaturals or other notes I cannot play.

[pancelticpiper]

Yes that brilliant Flags of Dublin album! Mick is just a lad. Anyhow his version there of Gold Ring is brilliant and I learned it just that way. At sessions however I was left playing it solo and when I finished people would say "That tune you just played reminds me of a tune called The Gold Ring" and then the session would blast through the Cheiftans version.

[Nanohedron]

Thanks for the lead, folks. BTW, I have just recently learned that there are purportedly an eighth and ninth part to The Gold Ring floating around there somewhere. I told my informant that she was most evil for telling me this.

Anyone have info on this, as well? ( )

[The Weekenders]

Well, this is where real ability and talent come into play.

When playing ITM you have to be good enough to know your version by heart, yet be flexible enough to quickly adapt to what your session mates might be doing. If you are ultra confident, and relaxed, you would have the overview to make that adjustment on the spot.

That's saying a lot. Even something as basic as Drowsy Maggie has that measure in the B part that not everybody plays the same. Drove me nuts at first.

I suppose that, only if you're a famous personage, can you play it your own way everytime and all will adapt to you.

FWIW, I learned Gold Ring from Liam O'Flynn's album. It's different than others versions. Nyuk. Especially the last strophe or whatever you would call it.