Tradition of Repetition?

[bobkeenan]

Why is Irish traditional music in sessions so repetitive. Lately I have been trying to see more live Irish Trad music. ..... Especially if they have pipes. I love it but if I drag friends or family along, they like it at first. And then the politely remark how repetitive it is. I have to agree.

Why is that? I have noticed the same in any American folk traditional sessions as well. I am guessing that its origin has to do with dance music and repeating the same tune allows for more time to dance? Or it almost seems like the session players get into a trance of sorts and don't want to stop.

Last night I had the opportunity to hear Joey Abarta play with two other local pipers Channing Dodson and Preston Howard. They were with other friends who played flute, penny whistle, banjo/guitar, and fiddle. It sounded great but at first I was again thinking how repetitive it was. It seemed that they would play one tune about 6 or more times. But I did listen a little closer last night. It did seem, or maybe I imagined it, that they were mixing up a bit with each repetition.... like they were Jamming a bit and also taking turns being a bit more in the lead. I really liked that.

Thoughts?

[geoff wooff]

ITM is particularly interesting for the players and the dancers... but without both of these types of people it is not VERY interesting for the casual observer as a Spectator sport or general Entertainment and thus it can appear to be repetitive... " Are you improvising badly or are you playing the same tune all evening ?" Asked an old and educated looking German Tourist one time during a session that was not being 'put on' for the tourists but was a regular nice meeting of musicians in a quiet Bar... he got a very interesting answer from our mentor...!

The Music has a first purpose... basically ' to dance to'... the second purpose, and the one that générâtes the variations and versions, is to keep the musician interested and awake whilst the dancers enjoy themselves.

The Idea that a session is good entertainment for Jo Public whilst he/she has a Beer is largely down to the fact that in Ireland if there are a lot of cars outside a Bar and therefore lots of people Inside then it must be THE place to be...( for Gossip and Conversation a Funeral is even better than a plane session). So, a small crowd pulls a bigger crowd.. and everyone talks so loud you cannot hear the music anyway..

Still ,in the end, how interesting it is to listen to a session dépends on who is playing and who is listening.

[bobkeenan]

Geoff..... Thanks.... That helps me understand.

[TheSilverSpear]

I imagine they were playing variations (c.f. ausdag's thread).

It's definitely a genre where part of the enjoyment comes from knowing and recognizing the nuances. It sounds the same to people not familiar with it. I don't make my non-music friends go to many gigs and sessions and I don't make non-horsey friends watch dressage for the same reasons.

[benhall.1]

I don't make my non-music friends go to many gigs and sessions and I don't make non-horsey friends watch dressage for the same reasons.

Well, I'm not horsey, but I like watching dressage on the telly. I think it's the repetitiveness of it that appeals to me.

[bensdad]

Geoff, do you remember the story of the Irish musician in London who takes his clueless English friend (no offence) to a session? When asked the next day how it went, he said. "It was very nice. They all sat down and played the same tune for three hours, and at the end they all stood up and played it again!"

(n.b. At sessions in England (at least when I was there) they always finished with the Irish National Anthem)

[geoff wooff]

Geoff, do you remember the story of the Irish musician in London who takes his clueless English friend (no offence) to a session? When asked the next day how it went, he said. "It was very nice. They all sat down and played the same tune for three hours, and at the end they all stood up and played it again!"

(n.b. At sessions in England (at least when I was there) they always finished with the Irish National Anthem)

Yes Patrick,
I've heard versions of this story, unfortunately it is not really a joke (wish it was) and many of us must have experienced similar things. One person in Ennistymon was heard to say that they had visited a local session and found it odd that the musicians eventually started to play (it was after 11pm) and then played one set of tunes and they all stopped and took a pull at their pints (almost in unison) and some of them lit up their cigarettes and had a few minutes of reflexion and conversation before repeating the process untill closing time.

I don't know what the speaker wanted... Entertainment probably... but I do know which session they were describing... a typical evening at Murphy's. It made us laugh but did not change our habits.

[john]

i went to a session in the irish midlands where they would play the national anthem at the end - it seemed to serve as a full stop to the night as after it you would not hear a single note

[mke_mick]

Bob, I salute you for having the guts to ask a question that, probably, many pipers have had when starting out. I started reading this thread fully expecting to see flames in reply, and have been pleasantly surprised to see none so far (knock on wood). So, maybe your reaction isn't too unusual.

Before I could play even a note on the pipes, I'd listen to recordings by the likes of Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, Altan, and Matt Molloy, thinking "Ah, that's the stuff! I want to play like that." So I got a practice set, dove into the Clarke book, and started taking lessons. And sure enough, that was the style and sensibility my teacher focused on: never playing things exactly the same twice through, always making room for interesting ornamentation, never sacrificing musicianship for tempo, etc.

Then, I started going to Great Northern Irish Piping Club meetings, and life got even more interesting: I was exposed to loads of good tunes I wanted to learn, and realized I needed to embrace metronome work (musical ideals notwithstanding).

But the first time I sat in a mixed pub session, I was baffled: almost entirely it was reels played at a zillion beats per minute, always the same every time through, all blending together in a thick reely mush. [yawn]

Of course, I was aware I didn't yet know nearly enough repertoire, and couldn't quite play reels at dance tempo. So I dutifully sat and listened for most of the session, joining maybe two tunes, telling myself how humbling and virtuous it was to sit and listen for once.

But I was bored! That session was nowhere near as musically compelling as any of my ITM CDs. No pub session I've played in yet has been, even now that I've got more repertoire and speed.

As Geoff et al have said, playing in pub sessions just isn't a spectator sport; it's background music for dancing minus the dancing. Fun for players who know & like each other and share enough tunes in common, but that's about as far as it goes.

Now, pipers' sessions, on the other hand, are ten kinds of cool. House sessions are a blast. And house sessions with lots of pipers rock very hard indeed.

Just my own, very pronounced, opinions,
Mick

P.S. Needless to say, much depends on the people. The "family sessions" held at St. Paul's Center for Irish Music are really pretty cool: varied repertoire, human-friendly tempi, and a welcoming group of people. Session playing is, first and foremost, a social event.

[Mr.Gumby]

That session was nowhere near as musically compelling as any of my ITM CDs. No pub session I've played in yet has been (stylistically speaking), even now that I've got more repertoire and speed.

It helps if you have sessions with good players you can go to. The straight line, each time the same at high speed is not the norm everywhere.

I have shared many nights of music with Geoff, as pipers or when playing for dancers (we shared a little stage playing in the millennium with Jackie Daly for example), I don't think he meant to imply sessions are boring events for the musicians or the dancers.

[TheSilverSpear]

Not all sessions thrash out reels at a zillion miles per hour. They are a social occasion and but they are even better if you can get some decent music out of it. I'd rather play in a session than sit at home with all my recordings.

[bogman]

I don't find traditional music repetitive at all, quite the opposite.

I also don't agree that the purpose of the music is just for dancers - not any more at any rate.

[mke_mick]

Producing is way more fun than consuming; no argument there. And it's certainly possible for groups of like-minded players to bring plenty of nuance and spontaneity to dance music.

Again, it all depends on the session, that is, on the players. That reel session I described represents an extreme (or my memory of it does ); I've played in others that were much more varied, inviting, and fun to be part of.

But you have to admit that as a genre, pub sessions are almost never audience-friendly; the performers' focus is entirely inwards (or lateral), and the onus falls squarely on listeners to already know and appreciate what they're hearing (including obscure, nuanced things like the names of tunes), to a much, much greater degree than we see in "professional" ITM performance.

I'm not condemning the whole undertaking; just agreeing that pub-session playing is not much of a spectator sport.

Cheers,
Mick

[ennischanter]

I enjoy the repetition for the fact that you can sort of improvise with different techniques and tone-hole venting for different harmonics. That's why I enjoy players like Seamus Ennis..


I don't really plan on playing at sessions either, mostly for solo.

[mke_mick]

I enjoy the repetition for the fact that you can sort of improvise with different techniques and stuff.

Right; that's what all good players are supposed to do. But I believe Mr. Keenan was observing that in a typical pub session, nobody does improvise with different techniques and stuff, or if they do it's drowned out by the unison roar.

--Mick