Reedmaking: collapsed lips

[mke_mick]

Hi again, reedmakers:

I need help with homemade reeds failing with collapsed lips. The problem starts when I'm tying the blades to the staple (i.e., while the lips are still thick -- the problem isn't over-scraping). On many of my recent attempts, when the wrap starts to approach the end of the staple and the sides of the slip finally start to meet, the lips also close, nearly or completely.

The two major changes to my technique have been switching from hobby-tubing to hand-rolled staples, and from sanding to scraping (i.e., I don't sand much any more, either on the inside of slips or on the scrape). I've made two Gallagher-style concert pitch reeds via this method that work very well, but two others have closed-lip syndrome. And both of the Haneman-style C# reeds I tried to finish yesterday closed down on tying. This is starting to feel much less like bad luck or invisible cane anomalies, and more like bad technique on my part.

I've got two ideas on corrections: doing less tail-gouging to try reducing the pressure between the lips (don't some reedmakers skip the secondary/tail gouging altogether?; or using a smaller-radius scraper on the insides of the slips, to make a "taller eye" aperture (which could also be achieved, I assume, by canting my current scraper, say, 20 or 30 degrees).

Any experienced reedmakers out there have any thoughts on this one?

Thanks in advance!
Mick

[myrddinemrys]

Not sure what may be causing the issue by this description. Could be a few things, such as wrapping, too much pressure during scraping . . . PM your phone number if you would like and I'll give you a buzz.

[bobkeenan]

If you figure this out I would love to see the answer. I have had this happen on some of my reeds and it was usually because I was experimenting with a larger diameter sanding block ( > 50mm dia.) or I sanded too much on the flat surface right before mating the slips. In both cases I found that I could still get them working by forcing the gap with the bridle or using a forming mandrel, that I carved out of the cane that I put between the slips overnight. Although they never seem to work as well as when you have a proper gap to begin with.

[islander]

Well, what is the force causing the collapse? Obviously it's the same the force that presses the blades together and closes them. So, it's either the binding, the bridle, or too strong sanding/scraping/gouging of the scrape.

If there is enough room for the staple, the sides will close down easier during binding and there will be less stress affecting the lips (and the rest of the reed head). A taller eye may work for a while, but if there's too much pressure in the first place then the sides of the lips will eventually give in and collapse.

My suggestion: Try gouging the tails so that the tails and the staple fit together 'like a glove', with minimum force needed during binding to form an airtight reed head. That should minimize the tension leading to the problem.

[billh]

I think there's a mix of good and not-so-good information in this thread, be cautious...

The ending 'elevation'/aperture of a finished reed depends on several things.

One is the geometry of the staple; changes in outer staple size, eye, or the point on the staple where you start to flatten will all impact this.

Secondly there is the relative amount of closing force imparted by the tails. If the reed is closing too much, the tails may be too stiff. The wedging/closing force of the tails is strongly related to the staple geometry (see above).

The diameter of the inside scrape is very important - i.e. the size of sanding cylinder or radius of scraper you use, and the slip width, will combine to form what Benedict Koehler refers to as the "dip". If your reeds are ending up too closed, increasing the dip will help to open them (for instance, use a smaller diameter cylinder or scraper). If your reed heads are starting to get narrower than you intended, this will tend to reduce the dip as well.

The tie-in is important but you need a certain amount of tension to get the desired reed head shape. I doubt, from the description, that this has to do with your scrape. Canting the scraper, to produce a deeper scrape, is on the right track; thinning the tails more (rather than less) may also sort things out. It may take a combination of both. You do want the reed sides to close well before the point where the triangular tail shape meets the rectangular form of the reed sides - it should be at most maybe 2 mm above the staple. This can only be achieved if the tails of the reed are given more curvature than the lips, when the reed is completed. If you're getting a very narrow aperture even before scraping begins, you are definitely in trouble; best to sort that out before trying to fix things with scrape or bridle.

It's very hard to diagnose these things long-distance, however, especially without photos.

best regards,

Bill

[mke_mick]

Bill, I was especially hoping you'd weigh in on this; thanks as always for the thorough reply. You've all given me lots to go on!

I forgot to mention that with this recent batch of reeds, I've been experimenting with the "bottle" shape (versus the "boat" shape my prior successful reeds use). Maybe I'm starting the "neck" of the bottle too near the head: maybe there needs to be more sticking out to either side of the staple, to create the right type of tension in the blades, i.e., to pull the sides down and push the middle up. (Or maybe less?)

Or, maybe I'm crimping too much of a slope on my staples. On my hobby-tube staples, the slope begins between 1/3 and 1/2 of the way down from the aperture, so I've been making my hand-rolled staples that way too. However, unlike perfectly cylindrical hobby tubing, hand-rolled staples are conical to begin with, so maybe I'm overdoing it with the flat pliers.

I'll do some experimenting and post updates accordingly, maybe with photos.

--Mick

[ImNotIrish]

Bill, I was especially hoping you'd weigh in on this; thanks as always for the thorough reply. You've all given me lots to go on!

I forgot to mention that with this recent batch of reeds, I've been experimenting with the "bottle" shape (versus the "boat" shape my prior successful reeds use). Maybe I'm starting the "neck" of the bottle too near the head: maybe there needs to be more sticking out to either side of the staple, to create the right type of tension in the blades, i.e., to pull the sides down and push the middle up. (Or maybe less?)

Or, maybe I'm crimping too much of a slope on my staples. On my hobby-tube staples, the slope begins between 1/3 and 1/2 of the way down from the aperture, so I've been making my hand-rolled staples that way too. However, unlike perfectly cylindrical hobby tubing, hand-rolled staples are conical to begin with, so maybe I'm overdoing it with the flat pliers.

I'll do some experimenting and post updates accordingly, maybe with photos.

--Mick

Mick, please do send along some photos. As a newbie to reed making, I am curious about all of this. I have taken to using
a small wood gouge to create a 'tone chamber' on the tails. This seems to help with the placement of the staple. I do not have any thickness measurements to give you, but the tails are pretty thin after gouging. For a concert pitch on my Whitmer set, I am measuring 7/8" from the ends of a 4'' slip. At this point, I am gouging a channel for the staple, and also work the sides. For the 'dip,' I am using a large glue stick tube. This seems to give me a workable opening, with approximately 1/3 for the two cane slips and the opening between.

Arbo