Chanter Stop Keys - types

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Chris Bayley
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Chanter Stop Keys - types

Post by Chris Bayley »

Further to an earlier posting on chanter stop keys here a couple of sketches showing different stop key arrangements for those who are wondering how they work or want to make their own.

The photo shows a turn type peg - very effective and it leaves both hands free but cannot be operated quite so easily whilst playing as hand needs to leave the chanter.

Image

The drawings below show other types that can be operated whilst playing either by the thumb or the top finger of the left hand.

Type "A" is from a set by "Wilkinson & McCarthy" circa 1979 (shown here as fitted to a set of small pipes)

Type "B" is from sets by "Leo Rowsome" and "Kennedy"

Type "C" a variation on "B" - pipes were not stamped.

Type "D" is from a set by "Coyne"

Type "E" is from a set by "Egan"


Image
Image
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MacEachain
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Post by MacEachain »

Hi Chris,
interesting drawings, I always wondered how they worked. They look really complicated to make. In your opinion what one is least likely to give problems?

Cheers, Mac
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Post by tansy »

i've come up with one that is intergrated into the chanter stock. i drill a small hole at an extreme angle from the outer underside of the stock that enters the bore in the stock just before it enters the bag, then a leather flapper and a brass rod with packing gland that slides in and out to "prick" open or let close the flapper. depending on the wood used in the chanter stock,you may want to insert and glue a piece of brass tube 2 sizes larger than the brass rod. i also flatten and bend down the outer end of the brass rod (3/16 od) to make an attractive and comfortable lever.
i hope this makes some sense, a picture would show the simplicity of it but i don't know how to draw on a pc.
tansy
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Post by Tony »

Type C with tapered valve/stopper:
Image

Type D with leather flap valve/stopper:
Image
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Calum
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Post by Calum »

Wow, thanks Chris.

I was going to ask how they wroked, but since that would involve someone having to do those drawings, I didn't like to ask...thanks.

Which is more common these days, or are they all in use?

Cheers,
Calum
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Harry
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Post by Harry »

Good stuff, Chris. 8)

Is there a name on the chanter with the turn peg stopper as shown in your message?

Regards, Harry.
Chris Bayley
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Post by Chris Bayley »

Answers to questions :

I prefer to use either "type C" or "Type E" - have tried all. General rule is keep it simple.

Use - most common seem to be the types "C", "D" and "E" but there are bound to me more as well as variations on those shown. Have seen "type D" on Dave Williams sets and "type C" on Alain Froment's sets.

The turn peg is from a set I made back in 1978. The idea was taken from a set by Kenna.

Tansy - if you can send a photo and description / scanned sketch can turn it into a drawing and post it.

If anyone wants a copy of the original CAD files just ask - can send it in a variety of formats to suit most drawing programs.
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Post by Roger O'Keeffe »

Very informative and helpful, Chris.

The chanter stop key is one of those things that people may be inclined to do without in order to shave a few euros/quid/dollars off the price of a full set, but I decided to opt for it and am delighted that I did; it makes tuning so much easier, especially fine-tuning when you have an audience. From that point of view, the lever-operated clack valve rather than screw-tap models are more convenient. There is also probably some benefit in terms of reduced wear and tear and resulting leakage from the neck of the bag.

Some makers (no names, no pack drill) seem to charge a disproportionate price for this key as if to discourage buyers from ordering it, and that is something really regrettable. I would prefer to see them taking the opposite course so that the stop key becomes routine and they can make some modest economies of scale.

PS, types B and C confirm my understanding of how some stop keys ended up on the front of the chanter. That was the subject of a discussion here earlier, but I wasn't sure enough of my recollection of the rare stop key mechanisms which I had seen to raise this point.
Last edited by Roger O'Keeffe on Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kevin L. Rietmann
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Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

I thought Coyne or Egan only made the "swan neck" type of chanter inlet, that you see on flat pipes mostly; or the direct into the bag's chanter stock type connection. Dan O'Dowd's Egan set with a T-type inlet, as it's called, is the only old flat pipes I've seen with the more modern style, and I always wondered if Dan didn't just make that himself. Yet here, with type D and E, you're showing "T-Heads" on pipes attributed to Egan and Coyne. Wuzzup, Mr. Bayley? And how about a sketch of that wicked awesome Colgan (?) double bass regulator?
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Post by Chris Bayley »

Hi Kevin and all

Being a little pedantic I think, but yes Coyne, Egan and others did tie the chanter stock directly into the bag. The object of the post was to show how chanter stop valves work not the style of the stock - it is up to the person making to decide on how he will use the information.

There is a slight error in that the Type C is shown closed when it should be open and before anyone else sees an opportunity to criticise the "copyright" notice refers to the drawing not the valves ! The list is not definative as there are others and variations including one where the mount at the top could be turned to act as a shut off.

I am not certain when the side tube entry was introduced, certainly the Taylors seemed to have used it universally - can anyone come up with an earlier maker who used it ?

The big Bb Egan / Colgan set

This has a side entry tube but this is a replacement of the original. I note your request for drawings and the easy answer to this one would be to quote from an eminent musicologist and writer

"Sorry but the instrument is of an obsolete pattern, not in modern pitch, in poor condition and would not be a suitable model to copy"

The quote above is from a one time curator of the Horniman Museum (Jean Jenkins) in London circa 1974/5 and concerned a rather nice flat set of pipes (from memory they were by Harrington). No one was allowed near the instruments to examine them or measure them which in retrospect was a mistake as they were stolen shortly afterwards. If they had been measured then at least records would have been kept ( UK museums usually retain copies of notes / measurements taken) and not all would have been lost.

Fortunately I do not follow this reasoning and for your information (and the rest of the members) I am working on plans for a number of pipes including sets by Rowsome, MacGregor as well as the Egan/Colgan Bb set and possibly a set by Brennan. I am also contemplating producing drawings for the Reid "Miller" set which will certainly please one of the new pipemakers on the forum. Personal message or private e-mail for details or I will be hauled over the coals for placing an advert on the forum ! I will be away on holiday so a reply may take a couple of weeks.

Have received a number of complaints about the Rowsome drone drawings on my website - some from other makers who do not like to see information freely available and also from a couple who wanted full external dimensions as well. As with most of my plans only internal bore measurements and lengths are given as the outside is for the individual to add his own distinctive design. If wall thickness is essential such as with a chanter then these are included.

Cheers

Chris
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Post by Roger O'Keeffe »

You're doing a good job, so f*** the begrudgers (or, as the Windsor crowd would put it, "honi soit qui mal y pense"").
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Cayden

Post by Cayden »

Chris Bayley wrote:The quote above is from a one time curator of the Horniman Museum (Jean Jenkins) in London circa 1974/5 and concerned a rather nice flat set of pipes (from memory they were by Harrington). No one was allowed near the instruments to examine them or measure them which in retrospect was a mistake as they were stolen shortly afterwards. If they had been measured then at least records would have been kept ( UK museums usually retain copies of notes / measurements taken) and not all would have been lost.


Chris
They were Harrington with a Coyne bass reg. Geoff Wooff actually examined these pipes and as far as I know measured them about a year before they were stolen.
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Post by Evertjan 't Hart »

Chris Bayley wrote: Have received a number of complaints about the Rowsome drone drawings on my website - some from other makers who do not like to see information freely available
Very strange, if you made the measurements yourself you can do whatever you like. The only party entitled to complain is the Rowsome family. But then again if they put a restriction on using Rowsome design most of the pipe makers could close their shops:) But seriously, often you hear stories on how the art of pipe making is lost because the old makers did not pass on their ‘secrets’. Well the only way to prevent this from happening again is to share information and knowledge. Luckily there are people like Craig Fisher, the lads from The Sean Reid Society, David Daye and many others who are willing to share their measurements, knowledge and skills. Anyway all those pipe makers should know better and contribute something to the forum instead of just lurking and protecting ‘their secrets’. You should remember that most of the knowledge you have is because someone was willing to share his and helped you on your way. Also a set of measurements doesn’t mean that someone is able to make good set of pipes. So I don’t understand how making this information available can by a threat, but maybe I’m just stupid.

Evertjan
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Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

I wish this whole concept of measurements of pipes (and other musical instruments) as property, intellectual and otherwise, would be recognized as the utterly spurious notion it is, comparable to someone building an airplane with no wings becuase they can't stand the idea of someone flying it. The lists of all the old pipes in museums and in private hands is quite long-see the Sean Reid Society Journals. There are sets by Kenna or Coyne that are just lying around doing nothing; why isin't someone on the spot with a box of bore gauges, finding out what's under the hood of these things? And why can't an aspiring pipemaker have it all on tap from the beginning? It's not going to matter-if a pipemaker's pipes are just going to suck due to lack of talent, having a bunch of highly accurate blueprints isin't going to help. :moreevil:
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Post by Tony »

Bump to the top for current discussion...
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