F# far to sharp

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Donegal Tom
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by Donegal Tom »

GreenWood wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:30 pm I don't have experience with pipes, only flutes. That made clear, I would try infilling the f# under the tape, say with blutac or wax. The depth of the tonehole makes a lot of difference, and taped is only as thick as the tape . Just taping might also not make much difference because firstly pitch change needs greater movement of the tonehole the further down the bore you are. Also possibly because the nearer the foot the more the venting is from bore end compared to the tonehole. It is an easy idea to try out anyway, and if that works then a more permanent infill could be used (obviously one that does not damage the chanter and that is easy enough to remove).
Thanks a lot GreenWood. This makes complete sense to me. I will try it and keep you updated.
geoff wooff wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:46 pm Donegan Tom,
looks like you should contact Martin Gallen , over the border in NI. Martin makes reeds for Fred Morrison and will surely have the solution to your problems.
Thanks again Geoff. I have contacted Martin and also Fred. I will share the results here as soon as i get them.
GreenWood
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by GreenWood »

What made me think of that was from

https://www.bagpipesociety.org.uk/artic ... lithuania/

long read, but in essence both flutes and presumably swedish pipe chanters were tuned by scalloping the tonehole. Afterwards it came to mind that taping will just look like a large undercut on the tonehole, on flutes that often gives about 20 cents or more. I haven't made any bagpipes, but might try to make these one day for their simplicity

http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa/tuning.php?lang=en

They only have a single reed, but the tuning description probably is something of the same world as double reeds. Looking at your chanter I feel sure it is well made and would be in tune with the right reed, so hopefully that sorts it out. Closing toneholes will usually change tuning of other notes slightly but maybe acceptably. I leave the say to the pipemakers and players though, they will know much more than myself on all of that.
Doesn't need saying but not worth reshaping a tonehole (i.e. the wood) on a well made or valuable chanter. We see this on flutes sometimes, or for the embouchure, often ruining them. It can be done but it really is only the realm of trusted makers unless not worried if the effort would botch the instrument.
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pancelticpiper
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by pancelticpiper »

Donegal Tom wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:12 pm
I am wondering if someone has ever experienced a F# note which is far too sharp...even taping cannot bring it down.

'A' was far too flat, I decided to sink the reed into the chanter so that this one is ok and maybe some taping on other notes.

That worked perfect for the top hand.

I had to tape the G and E a little bit, too.
Two things jumped out to me as I read this:

1) There's no mention of which octave or what fingerings or what approaches to bag-pressure are involved.

2) There are several references to tape.

Please don't take this as being negative or condescending, but I would like to ask: are you, by chance, a Highland piper who has taken up the uilleann pipes?

I was originally a Highland piper, and after taking up the uilleann pipes I started quite a few other Highland pipers on the path to becoming uilleann pipers, and these are the sorts of conversations we often had.

This is because the goal in Highland piping is to play at one strict pressure, and tape all the holes to suit, done and dusted.

Whereas on the uilleann pipes it's often about subtleties of pressure, alternate fingerings, precise placement of the bridle, use of rushes, etc.

Getting back to F# in the bottom octave, on my chanter that note is sharp if I don't give it enough pressure. As pressure gets lower my F# goes sharper, opposite of what one might expect.

You didn't mention the 2nd octave but there my F# is bang-on.

My 'A' in the 2nd octave is a hair flat, yet bang-on in the low octave.

About bridle placement, I had a beginner come for a lesson and I tried his chanter and the tuning was quite bad. As I recall 'A' was quite flat.

I looked at his reed and it appeared to me that the bridle might have slipped down. I pushed the bridle higher, to where it looked like it originally might have been, and voila! the chanter played bang-on over the two octaves.
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jon1908
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by jon1908 »

Does your chanter still have it’s rush in the lower half of the bore?

AFAIK these chanters are designed to have one.
Donegal Tom
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by Donegal Tom »

pancelticpiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:25 am
Donegal Tom wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:12 pm
I am wondering if someone has ever experienced a F# note which is far too sharp...even taping cannot bring it down.

'A' was far too flat, I decided to sink the reed into the chanter so that this one is ok and maybe some taping on other notes.

That worked perfect for the top hand.

I had to tape the G and E a little bit, too.
Two things jumped out to me as I read this:

1) There's no mention of which octave or what fingerings or what approaches to bag-pressure are involved.

2) There are several references to tape.

Please don't take this as being negative or condescending, but I would like to ask: are you, by chance, a Highland piper who has taken up the uilleann pipes?

I was originally a Highland piper, and after taking up the uilleann pipes I started quite a few other Highland pipers on the path to becoming uilleann pipers, and these are the sorts of conversations we often had.

This is because the goal in Highland piping is to play at one strict pressure, and tape all the holes to suit, done and dusted.

Whereas on the uilleann pipes it's often about subtleties of pressure, alternate fingerings, precise placement of the bridle, use of rushes, etc.

Getting back to F# in the bottom octave, on my chanter that note is sharp if I don't give it enough pressure. As pressure gets lower my F# goes sharper, opposite of what one might expect.

You didn't mention the 2nd octave but there my F# is bang-on.

My 'A' in the 2nd octave is a hair flat, yet bang-on in the low octave.

About bridle placement, I had a beginner come for a lesson and I tried his chanter and the tuning was quite bad. As I recall 'A' was quite flat.

I looked at his reed and it appeared to me that the bridle might have slipped down. I pushed the bridle higher, to where it looked like it originally might have been, and voila! the chanter played bang-on over the two octaves.
Thanks a lot for your answer. You are spot on ! I started as a highland piper 20 years ago, yet the Uilleann Pipes came about a year later. I am aware of the fact that there is a slightly difference in bag pressure needed, when playing the notes, yet my experience so far with my other set and chanters is that the pressure stays quite similar in aereas, for example from bottom D to G, a bit more pressure for A through C (sometimes incl. back d), and so on. Reagrding the two octaves, with this chanter they are to 99% similar. I have one chanter that behaves the same like yours, the F# goes sharper with lower pressure. I just tried it with the FM chanter and it's the opposite, it's getting sharper with more pressure. Thanks a lot for your input. Everything is appreciated. I am sure there is still something that i overlook.
Donegal Tom
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by Donegal Tom »

jon1908 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:52 am Does your chanter still have it’s rush in the lower half of the bore?

AFAIK these chanters are designed to have one.
Yes, i actually have two rushes in the bore.
Donegal Tom
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by Donegal Tom »

GreenWood wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:30 pm I don't have experience with pipes, only flutes. That made clear, I would try infilling the f# under the tape, say with blutac or wax. The depth of the tonehole makes a lot of difference, and taped is only as thick as the tape . Just taping might also not make much difference because firstly pitch change needs greater movement of the tonehole the further down the bore you are. Also possibly because the nearer the foot the more the venting is from bore end compared to the tonehole. It is an easy idea to try out anyway, and if that works then a more permanent infill could be used (obviously one that does not damage the chanter and that is easy enough to remove).
Thanks again. I tried the wax on the F# and it worked amazing, much better than the tape. Okay it fell out after two tunes but a blutac replacement worked well.
The chanter would have been perfect, but i haven't tought about the fact that this might affect the C# note, too.
So i am back at the bigging now trying other reeds...
Donegal Tom
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by Donegal Tom »

Update time:

Fred came back to me with quite a few suggestions.
The first that i tried cured it all. It's so simple !

It was shortening the rush, he calls it tuning pin, so that it sits just below the A hole.

It's pitch perfect now !
GreenWood
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Re: F# far to sharp

Post by GreenWood »

:thumbsup:
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