Leo Rowsome's personal set

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Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by PJ »

I was listening to the Rolling Wave episode on the 50th anniversary of the passing of Leo Rowsome. The episode discusses Leo's personal set, which was kindly donated by the family to the National Museum of Ireland.

I've heard of many of Leo's sets being measured and reproduced, but I haven't heard of anyone having measured Leo's own set. Has it been done? Has anyone tried to build a set based on Leo's personal set?
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by Steampacket »

Has anyone tried to build a set based on Leo's personal set? PJ
I don't know, but why would you want to, as regarding the chanter, they say Leo made his set when he was 19 years old which would have been in 1922 when A=453hz was standard, not A=440hz. Leo's chanter as I understand was a little shorter at 14 1/4 in. than modern D chanters. Leo preferred being a little sharp of modern concert pitch too I gather. I think Leo's set sounds great, but it would mean everyone would have to tune to you in a session, unless you intend to only perform solo, or have a fiddler tune to you.

Master piper maker Geoff Wooff had this to say in The Seán Reid Society Journal. Volume 2, March 2002. 2.04 5):

"One problem that people have with trying to recreate the sound of the master pipe makers is that without an original example, reeded by one of those masters, we can only imagine the tone and volume. To describe what I mean, listen to the tone of two Rowsome chanters on recordings. Try comparing Leo Rowsome playing his own set to Paddy Keenan playing one of Leo’s chanters with his own reed. The tonal difference is striking. Paddy’s tone is thick and almost flute like,whereas Leo’s tone is reedy and oboe-like. The reed-making styles are quite different.

Many people have tried to make a C or B chanter after spending many years making and playing the concert pipes. The result is often a flat pitched concert type chanter too loud and with the fundamental dominating the harmonic structure. The problem here is quite involved and starts with the preconceptions of the maker. I will therefore attempt to describe the utter difference between the two types of chanter currently being used.

The modern concert pitch or ‘D’ chanter of the wide bore type which is usually modelled on the 14 1⁄4 ”long Rowsome. Whatever about the relative width of the bore, the finger holes are much larger than those of the classic makers and are varied in size e.g. the F sharp hole much larger than the E hole. These chanters were designed to play in D, but that is at the pitch standard prevailing at the time which was A= 453hz. This standard pitch was changed around 1930 to A= 440hz, a drop of half a semitone!

This drop in pitch did not bother many pipers who just played away as there were plenty of other instruments that were also in this higher pitch. However with the revival of interest in pipes in the late sixties these ‘D’ chanters were made to play in modern concert pitch by applying a wide and heavy reed that was scraped to produce a natural note, when sucked, of G or even F sharp. This does bring down the overall pitch, but leaves the instrument sounding dull and ‘heavy’. The typical staple diameter was also reduced and, with the use of a rush in the bore, the two octaves could be lowered in pitch together.

However the result as I see it, is that a whole generation of pipers have grown up using and thinking that these are the real thing. The classic chanter, or ’flat’ chanter, with its narrower bore and small relatively sized finger holes needs to be coupled to a smaller reed that has only been scraped so that its natural note, when sucked, is the A of the chanter or a little above. At the same time the reed head needs to be reasonably light so that it can respond to the small pressure changes caused by the small finger holes. So here is quite a different and lighter reed head playing at a higher pitch for the classic chanter and a heavy, strong reed playing a lower pitch for the concert chanter!"

Donnacha Dwyer has made chanters based on the measurements of the Liam O'Flynn Rowsome set made in the 1940's, and a Rowsome set made in the 1930's when A=440hz became the standard.
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by geoff wooff »

It was at an International conference on the pitch of musical instruments in 1939 that A440hz. was decided as the standard. Whether this was adopted straight away or took some years to be assimilated or ever became a universal standard I am not completely sure but it would have caused many problems for some types of instrument makers to redesign their products to produce the new pitch.

Of course the pre war pitch in english speaking countries of A453, or was it 452hz ?, was far from the only standard in use at that time, hence the desire for a common pitch world wide. These days a standard pitch in many ( most ?) countries is somewhere between A440 and A446 which is much closer than the pre-war varieties.
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by pancelticpiper »

Steampacket wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:14 am
One problem that people have with trying to recreate the sound of the master pipe makers is that without an original example, reeded by one of those masters, we can only imagine the tone and volume.
The same thing happens with Highland pipes: somebody will stick a modern reed in a vintage chanter, say from the 18th century or 19th century, and record the pitch and scale intervals.

I say the only thing sticking a modern reed in a vintage chanter tells you is what that chanter sounds like with a modern reed stuck in it. It tells you very little about how that chanter would have sounded like in its own time-period, in the hands of a good player from that time. In truth, chanters produce the tone and pitch and tuning intended by the player.
Steampacket wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:14 am
Donnacha Dwyer has made chanters based on the measurements of the Liam O'Flynn Rowsome set made in the 1940's
My c1980 David Quinn chanter is said to have been copied from that same O Flynn chanter.
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by rorybbellows »

It probably comes down to the question, is the pipe maker trying to make a musical instrument or a time machine.
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by ennischanter »

Steampacket wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:14 am
Has anyone tried to build a set based on Leo's personal set? PJ
.

Master piper maker Geoff Wooff had this to say in The Seán Reid Society Journal. Volume 2, March 2002. 2.04 5):

"One problem that people have with trying to recreate the sound of the master pipe makers is that without an original example, reeded by one of those masters, we can only imagine the tone and volume. To describe what I mean, listen to the tone of two Rowsome chanters on recordings. Try comparing Leo Rowsome playing his own set to Paddy Keenan playing one of Leo’s chanters with his own reed. The tonal difference is striking. Paddy’s tone is thick and almost flute like,whereas Leo’s tone is reedy and oboe-like. The reed-making styles are quite different.

Many people have tried to make a C or B chanter after spending many years making and playing the concert pipes. The result is often a flat pitched concert type chanter too loud and with the fundamental dominating the harmonic structure. The problem here is quite involved and starts with the preconceptions of the maker. I will therefore attempt to describe the utter difference between the two types of chanter currently being used.


Fascinating stuff, I recall when watching the video of the “5 pipers playing the Ennis Coyne” and Donnacha Dwyer playing it, it sounds quite different.

The bottom D sounds much brighter.

On those Ennis recordings his Hard Bottom D had a darker woodier tone to my ear, also I always liked that rattle or “crowing” High G he had.


I wonder if I could ever get those sounds in my chanter. (The woodier Bottom D and the high G crow.)
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by Mr.Gumby »

ennischanter wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:13 pm


Fascinating stuff, I recall when watching the video of the “5 pipers playing the Ennis Coyne” and Donnacha Dwyer playing it, it sounds quite different.

The bottom D sounds much brighter.

On those Ennis recordings his Hard Bottom D had a darker woodier tone to my ear, also I always liked that rattle or “crowing” High G he had.


I wonder if I could ever get those sounds in my chanter. (The woodier Bottom D and the high G crow.)
As Geoff indicated, nearly everything depends on how the thing is reeded. The Ennis pipes are now reeded in a very different way than they were when Ennis had them. But the fingerings you use are equally important to bring out the sounds and colours. When Liam O'Flynn had them, someone commented on how they sounded in his hands 'like Flynn playing a flat set'. But LOF is also on record saying Ennis sounded exactly like Ennis playing his (O'Flynn's) Rowsome set.

I played the set a few years ago and it was passed around between a few pipers. Nobody sounded like Ennis sounded when he played it but at times some sounds came through that reminded you which chanter you were listening to. For example Emmet Gill playing the Groves managed to coax some lovely sounds out of it. Seán McKeon had his moments too but everybody agreed it was unpredictable and unexpected when the chanter gave you 'that' sound. But it is definitely a chanter you need to spend time with, preferably not in a room full of other pipers keenly watching what you make of it. For one the chanter was originally a left handed one and it is not always easy to get all holes covered properly.
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by ennischanter »

Very interesting indeed, I recall Ronan Browne talking about the c block on that chanter making things quite difficult.



In regards to the “Ennis sound” coming from Liam O’Flynn’s Rowsome pipes, listening to Harry Ó Brolcháin play in that traditional “gentry” style, I believe it more than ever. He has a Concert Nakatsui chanter I think, my goodness he knows how to make that thing sing, hugely underrated piper IMO, one of the greatest living if you ask me.



And yeah, Ennis was an absolute master at “swelling” the notes and changing the tones of the chanter, I try to take after him in that regard, (I prefer to play in the tighter “gentlemen’s” style overall) my chanter can get pretty close, with the exception of the brighter Bottom D and the lack of crowing High G, and, of course, I’m no master like he is 👌 😉

(I have yet to venture into reedmaking, but yeah, I’d love to try to see if I could get a different tone out of my chanter by making different reeds, I need the dough for some supplies. Very fascinating stuff.)
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by m4malious »

geoff wooff wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:02 am It was at an International conference on the pitch of musical instruments in 1939 that A440hz. was decided as the standard. Whether this was adopted straight away or took some years to be assimilated or ever became a universal standard I am not completely sure but it would have caused many problems for some types of instrument makers to redesign their products to produce the new pitch.

Of course the pre war pitch in english speaking countries of A453, or was it 452hz ?, was far from the only standard in use at that time, hence the desire for a common pitch world wide. These days a standard pitch in many ( most ?) countries is somewhere between A440 and A446 which is much closer than the pre-war varieties.
I personally suspect Leo Rowsome might have been quite responsive to the 1939 change - certainly he would have been aware of it, teaching at the School of Music, etc, etc.

When I purchased my Rowsome set (made 1940) Liam Og came along to "vet" it. He brought his set and a box of Rowsome reeds he had.
The first thing we both noticed was the chanter length was a full 14 and 1/4 inches long - Liams chanter was of course (is still) 14". Anyhow, we tried a number of his reeds in the longer chanter and it was always well flat of D. Talking with Liam about it was how I formed the view that Leo likely adjusted his design to meet the "standard" that had emerged...

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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by Steampacket »

The first thing we both noticed was the chanter length was a full 14 and 1/4 inches long - Liams chanter was of course (is still) 14". Anyhow, we tried a number of his reeds in the longer chanter and it was always well flat of D. Talking with Liam about it was how I formed the view that Leo likely adjusted his design to meet the "standard" that had emerged... M.
If Liam's Rowsome chanter made in 1936 was 14in. long and the reed was made in 1938, how did Liam manage to play in modern concert pitch A=440.
I understand that Liam used other reeds in the chanter later on, but how did he get the 1938 reed to play in tune at A=440? Has the Sean Reid Rowsome chanter been altered internally?
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by MichaelLoos »

AFAIK Liam's reeds were made by Leo Rowsome in the 1960ies and were said to be huge.
Also, he pulled out the end ferrule to extend the overall length of the chanter but still never really managed to get it lower than 446 Hz.
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by m4malious »

Steampacket wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:59 am If Liam's Rowsome chanter made in 1936 was 14in. long and the reed was made in 1938, how did Liam manage to play in modern concert pitch A=440.
I understand that Liam used other reeds in the chanter later on, but how did he get the 1938 reed to play in tune at A=440? Has the Sean Reid Rowsome chanter been altered internally?
What is the evidence saying he used a reed from 1938 at all?
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by rorybbellows »

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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by m4malious »

rorybbellows wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:18 pm Image
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Well circulated image - but, not really confirmation of when that - or any other - reed was made...
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Re: Leo Rowsome's personal set

Post by Driftwood »

I don't think the A440 thing in 1939 was that much of a big bang moment for music (e.g. "OMG I've got got to start making bigger reeds NOW!") because A439 (not much difference) had already been around for a long time, as a rival "platform" if you like to the high pitch. And it took years for the higher pitch to be totally abandoned as people junked their old instruments. Even now, I bet there are a few old high-pitched sets stored under beds.
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