New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

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Narzog
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New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Narzog »

Hey guys. I've officially began my Uilleann Piper journey. My practice set just came in today. I knew everyone said UP's were hard but WOW its harder than I thought haha. I'm having a bonus difficulty though. I cant get the low E to sound. I'm not sure if this is a reed setup thing or not. The guy I bought them from sent a video of them working fine so I know I didnt buy a dud. The other notes seem to work fine. I have to squeeze the bag a lot harder than I expected but thats most likely fine.

I googled and found a on the session post asking this, and saw that peopel said the low E is the hardest note. But even when I squeeze as little as possible, I cant get it at all in the first octave. The off the leg can work, but barely.

I did watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eASohKTla8
The thing on my reed appears to be down all the way already, which he said makes it play easier. And seeing that it was playing fine before I shouldn't be screwing with anything.

I'm wondering if anyone has had issues like this and has ideas on a solution. I'm trying to not just fiddle with stuff to try and make it work, I don't want to accidentally ruin my reed or something haha. I've noticed that turning my reed in the hole its mounted actually effects its straightness for some reason. I have it turned where its as straight as possible.

Thanks for any info! Looking forward to hopefully fixing this so I can at least play a full scale and begin practicing haha.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by an seanduine »

In the absence of an experienced piper right at your side I'm going to counsel extreme caution and patience.
First things first. It is an extremely exceptional reed that doesn't need a few hours to a few weeks to settle in after shifting its location. God it weren't so, but it is. As a novice you can dive deeply into a nettle patch by attempting to adjust a reed. Learning to steadily blow the bag and competently operate the bellows on a single, easily sounded note can occupy you for any number of hours. This can also be a great lesson in patience (always a commodity in scarcity) and serve to move some air through the reed and help it work out any stresses it may have from its recent journey.
Learning to adjust a reed, particularly if you currently lack the skill to make another right away, should be approached with the same caution that you would apply to disarming an IED.
My two cents worth.

Bob
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Narzog
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Narzog »

an seanduine wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:55 pm Learning to adjust a reed, particularly if you currently lack the skill to make another right away, should be approached with the same caution that you would apply to disarming an IED.
My two cents worth.

Bob
Thanks for the info Bob. While I've spent many hours in the basement making whistles, and will most likely learn how to make reeds eventually if I need to, I'd rather not have to do that yet haha. I will refrain from messing with my reed. Most likely you are right, I'm probobly underestimating the effects of travel and climate on the reed. Its strange how much a tiny piece of wood can change just from moving location. I'm hoping that this climate adjustment will happen while I'm sleeping haha.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Mr.Gumby »

There isn't really a reason for the E to be 'the most difficult note', don't believe things you read on the internet, unless you know the credibility of the person making the statements.

It would probably helpful if you provide a bit more information: who made the pipes, what exactly is the problem (in what way refuses the E to speak, is there a lot of air going through the reed without getting it to vibrate or is it closed and not taking much air at all, does the second E sound etc), how does the rest of the scale sound and play (do you need a lot of pressure, as far you can judge it, is the sound bright, loud and clear or dull, quiet and stuffy), does the reed have a wire or a copper bridle, is the reed seated properly in the chanter without airleaks, wobble and without touching the inside of the windcap, does the reed 'crow' when sucked at the bottom end? That sort of thing.

As Bob said, a reed is easily damaged beyond repair when you don't know what you're doing to it. Best to leave it although I don't think the problem will remedy itself without an intervention/adjustment. Best start reading up on reed adjustments and how the things work.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Narzog »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:31 am There isn't really a reason for the E to be 'the most difficult note', don't believe things you read on the internet, unless you know the credibility of the person making the statements.

It would probably helpful if you provide a bit more information: who made the pipes, what exactly is the problem (in what way refuses the E to speak, is there a lot of air going through the reed without getting it to vibrate or is it closed and not taking much air at all, does the second E sound etc), how does the rest of the scale sound and play (do you need a lot of pressure, as far you can judge it, is the sound bright, loud and clear or dull, quiet and stuffy), does the reed have a wire or a copper bridle, is the reed seated properly in the chanter without airleaks, wobble and without touching the inside of the windcap, does the reed 'crow' when sucked at the bottom end? That sort of thing.

As Bob said, a reed is easily damaged beyond repair when you don't know what you're doing to it. Best to leave it although I don't think the problem will remedy itself without an intervention/adjustment. Best start reading up on reed adjustments and how the things work.
The thread I read was this.
https://thesession.org/discussions/25157

I took some reed pictures, link below
https://imgur.com/a/DJfJtaE

To answer your questions:
The E Just squeaks out a really weak second octave or nothing. I dont know enough about reeds to know what is causing this though. Its possible to get a really weak low E if I dont put the chanter on my knee. I tried this from what someone said in the session link above. But this isnt an ideal fix and is still a really pathetic E.

For the rest, its very loud, but the first octave everything else plays. Second octave, after like the first 3 notes, I cant hit second octave at all even if I squeeze the bag as hard as I can, within reason. I feel like for everything I have to squeeze the bag much harder than I expected. I wish I could re test these things now but everyone's sleeping. But I think I cant hit the top of second octave. Note though that the second octave issue may be user error, I need to try again tomorow. While testing I may have tried to jump from nothing to high second but I dont think this works well on UP.

See the images for reed seating. I've found that I can turn the reed and it will adjust its straightness. It seems like the string might not be perfectly wound and can give it a bit of offset. In one of the images, you can see that its straight left and right bit from the side seems to be leaning a little.

Bridle is metal and all the way down, can see in image.

I took an image to see how open the reed is.

The reed is firmly in place but you can wiggle it a little, not sure if I need to try and adjust the thread to make it fit better.

Also I think it plays very sharp consistently across all notes, but this is the least of my worries right now haha. But I know some reed adjustments effect this so idk if its linked to my other issues.

sucking on my reed from the thread does nothing. I get the slightest squeek/hiss. Not a good sign, I saw Matt Willis do this in his Daye pipes video. It sounded a lot more like a reed.

Thanks for the help sofar. Am really hoping I can get it playing right so I can begin practicing. But its really demotivating to practice when I don't even think its playing correctly. I expect my playing to sound horrific but when I cant even get all the notes to work thats a rough place to start haha.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Mr.Gumby »

You didn't mention who made your pipes. Who made them?

sucking on my reed from the thread does nothing. I get the slightest squeek/hiss. Not a good sign
You will want it to 'crow' when sucked, no hope of playing it if it doesn't.

These things are hard to diagnose without actually handling the pipes/reed. Things are pointing towards a poorly finished reed though: it doesn't look particularly open in the photos and yet you complain of it being too hard and too loud. But again, only handling it will tell for certain.

What fingering do you use for E? Two bottom fingers off when on the knee is what you should do, ignore the fingering mentioned on the thread you linked.

Second octave, after like the first 3 notes, I cant hit second octave at all even if I squeeze the bag as hard as I can, within reason.
How do you get to the octave? Just squeezing harder won't do it but perhaps don't worry too much about that at this stage.
The reed is firmly in place but you can wiggle it a little, not sure if I need to try and adjust the thread to make it fit better.
Adjust your thread so it won't move and make sure the seal is airtight. You don't want any 'wiggle' room.

I take it you checked there's no rush or anything up the chanter choking your E?
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Narzog »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:22 am You didn't mention who made your pipes. Who made them?

sucking on my reed from the thread does nothing. I get the slightest squeek/hiss. Not a good sign
You will want it to 'crow' when sucked, no hope of playing it if it doesn't.

These things are hard to diagnose without actually handling the pipes/reed. Things are pointing towards a poorly finished reed though: it doesn't look particularly open in the photos and yet you complain of it being too hard and too loud. But again, only handling it will tell for certain.

What fingering do you use for E? Two bottom fingers off when on the knee is what you should do, ignore the fingering mentioned on the thread you linked.

Second octave, after like the first 3 notes, I cant hit second octave at all even if I squeeze the bag as hard as I can, within reason.
How do you get to the octave? Just squeezing harder won't do it but perhaps don't worry too much about that at this stage.
The reed is firmly in place but you can wiggle it a little, not sure if I need to try and adjust the thread to make it fit better.
Adjust your thread so it won't move and make sure the seal is airtight. You don't want any 'wiggle' room.

I take it you checked there's no rush or anything up the chanter choking your E?
OK big improvement, I took the rush out and yes it was somehow messing up the E. So now I can get a less loud low E. but that lines up a bit more with what people said in that session thread. and if its anything like whistles E seems to have a small hole which would also make it a weaker note. So great idea to check that, thanks. Theres still some issues to work out with the reed still but at least its more playable now.

Also I removed some thread from the reed and now it fits better, but sits a little further down. Later I'll see how the overall tuning is like this to see if I need to re add string or anything.

I bought the Kwisthout practice set a few threads down. I was avoiding mentioning that because I dont want to make the seller look bad. but he did send me video of it playing fine so when he sold it it was working fine. To me at least everything seems nice and in great condition. From my googling Kwisthout chanters have had mixed reviews, so maybe the reed is sub par, not sure. But I did get a good deal haha.

Its very possible I'm doing second octave wrong. I know that especially the higher notes generally cant just go from nothing to second octave. So the problem there is most likely me.

The reed not crowing though is still a sign that it could be improved. I've done some reading on reed making and stuff but my issue with that is that as a new player who doesnt know what ideal is and doesnt have a perfectly set up reed to compare to, my expectations of being able to make anything good is really low haha. I will say the bridle seems loose, but I'm not sure how to properly tighten it.

I've looked at buying a new reed but they arent cheap. Unless theres any affordable USA makers. I will most likely need to learn to make my own but I'd at least be able to play something proper first before I have to do that. I'm enjoying my break from whistle crafting, reed crafting will probobly be harder lol... I wish a good synthetic reed existed but reed development isnt quite there yet.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Mr.Gumby »

That explains some things. I met Hubert some thirty or more years ago (1989, I believe). A friend of mine was close to him, from when HK was working for Alan Ginzberg. Hubert's chanters would, to my mind, not be very loud and probably shouldn't be driven too hard. His reeds were usually not the brightest sounding ones, that's my memory of them anyway.

Realise you don't buy reeds off the shelf, they'll have to be fitted to suit a particular chanter's style. So you'll have to send over your chanter to a reedmaker or go over and spend time until a suitable reed is found. You'll have best chances with someone familiar with Ginzberg style chanters. I don't think Hubert is still doing that sort of jobs but I don't know.
Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Thu May 13, 2021 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by elbowmusic »

This is a just in case sort of question. You aren't just opening one finger on the leg to play the E right?
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Narzog »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:15 pm That explains some things. I met Hubert some thirty or more years ago (1989, I believe) I. A friend of mine was close to him, HK was working for Alan Ginzberg. Hubert's chanters would, to my mind, not be very loud and probably shouldn't be driven too hard. His reeds were usually not the brightest sounding ones, that's my memory of them anyway.

Realise you don't buy reeds off the shelf, they'll have to be fitted to suit a particular chanter's style. So you'll have to send over your chanter to a reedmaker or go over and spend time until a suitable reed is found. You'll have best chances with someone familiar with Ginzberg style chanters. I don't think Hubert is still doing that sort of jobs but I don't know.
I'm assuming your right but for my own understanding, what would make an off the shelf Howard or other quality reed so bad? Like these for example, linked from Fred Morrisons site as recommended reed
https://banbadesign.co.uk/epages/31a848 ... roducts/31
This looks extremely similar to my current reed, same with Howard, and seems like it wouldn't have any reason to not fit or work. On the link above it even says for any chanter. I understand that it may not play identitally in every chanter, but how big would the difference be vs one perfectly made for my chanter? From a mechanical standpoint it seems liek the same stuff would be going on, with only slight measurement differences possibly that could be altered with things like using more string to raise or lower the reed.

Also I thought my chanter looked normal, is it some different style than others, like Patrick Sky's (he would have been my top pick if I ordered from maker but I like going used these days to save money)?
elbowmusic wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:32 pm This is a just in case sort of question. You aren't just opening one finger on the leg to play the E right?
I'm lifting both fingers with the chanter on the leg. Thanks for checking though, this is one of those things where if you didnt ask that could have been my issue haha.
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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by an seanduine »

Well, Pat Sky is no longer making. Last I heard he was suffering from Parkinson's and was packing it in.

There are a number of ways of looking at reeds, and by and large most only tell part of the story. One way is to see the reed as providing a valving action, with each opening and closing of the lips providing the impulse for the sound wave to excite the column of air in the body of the chanter.

Another is to recognize that the taper and curvature of the reed and the carving of the internal shape of the inside of the reed controls the various vibrational modes of the reed as it produces the various fundamental and harmonics. In a way this is similar to the shaping and tensioning of the sound box of a violin.

None of the real differences between one reed and another are necessarily palpable to the naked eye. But they can be very real differences in performance.

Just looking at the pictures of your reed several things bother me. One is it looks just a little fuzzy. If you can get some 2000 or higher grit wet-n-dry paper you could GENTLY try polishing it up. Taking a slip and GENTLY slide it between the lips and pulling it out once or twice, reversing it to get the underside of each half might improve its response.

CAUTION. :)

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Re: New UP'er has arrived. Reed setup. My low E wont sound.

Post by Tom_S »

Narzog wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:51 pm I understand that it may not play identitally in every chanter, but how big would the difference be vs one perfectly made for my chanter? From a mechanical standpoint it seems liek the same stuff would be going on, with only slight measurement differences possibly that could be altered with things like using more string to raise or lower the reed.
It's absolutely insane how much difference there can be between reeds, and the effect those differences have. Each individual note can be out of whack in wildly varying ways. Tuning between octaves, gurgling notes, squeaking notes, varying hardness, sinking back D, etc etc etc. One reed can be perfect in your chanter but have things going wrong in another chanter. 99.9% of good reeds will be imperfect in some way, it's about working with the imperfections and finding the best way around them.

Howard, Banba etc make good reeds - I've bought reeds from both of them - but they most likely won't be perfect for your chanter, and there's a fair chance they could be worse than your current reed, at least by some measures.

In my case I have a good reedmaker nearby who spent a long time getting a good reed working in my chanter. It's not perfect but I can work around the imperfections for the most part.
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